XenBlog + XenCMS: It's already here!

Tigratrus

Tigratrus

Well-known member
Well... Mostly ;)

I've spent years thinking about ways to tightly integrate Blogs and CMS systems into a forum based site. This morning a final piece of the puzzle fell into place, and I'd like to get some feedback from others before making it into a "Suggestion."

Basically, BOTH The CMS and the Member Blogs should be nothing more, or less, than a different VIEW (in the MVC sense) of the existing community content (forums). Building a separate parallel system which stovepipes user content is counter productive, presents a unnecessary barrier to user adoption, and fragments the community.

The solution to both a native XF CMS and a native XF Member Blogging solution is essentially:

An extended XenPorta. Let's hear it for Jaxel! :)

Let me explain.

XenCMS

With the "Promote Thread" functionality Jaxel has already implemented, XenPorta can act right now as quite a good CMS using the forum system to store the articles. About the only thing that's missing is the ability to provide category pages that show a chronological list of "Articles" in a given category.

Category pages could be handled one of two ways (off the top of my head):
  1. Each category == an existing forum name. That ties in directly with your communities existing content structure, so it prepares newcomers arriving via the home page for the community forum structure.
  2. When "Promoting" a thread from the community forums to the home page, you specify a matching category for that "article."
In both cases, clicking on the category name brings up a page that functions identically to XenPorta, except it has a filter that shows only articles that match the appropriate category. If these category pages have the ability to have their own module configuration/layout, you now have the ability to (very easily!) craft customized landing pages for various topic areas of your site. Each of which will be dynamically updated with topically appropriate "articles" simply by promoting threads from the forums. How do you add custom crafted articles with in depth info? By doing what you should be already doing in the first place...creating really GOOD threads in your forum system!

Basically each category page acts as a separate WP style blog (displaying carefully selected content from the forums), and the homepage acts as an aggregator (showing all selected content in all categories).

XenBlog

Building on the existing XenPorta functionality we use a single forum to hold all "Member Blog" OP's and present them in a member specific manner. Basically XenPorta, but with the "RecentNews" module set to pull from the designated "Blog" forum (Project Blogs in the example below) with a filter to only pull threads started by the member whose "Blog" you are visiting.

Example:

Let's say you have a DIY forum, and you have a forum named "Project Blogs" where your members chronicle their projects. Now I can either go to "Project Blogs" and create a new thread there, or I can click "My Blog" in the site Nav menu to go to my "Blog" (www.domain.com/blogs/tigratrus) then click a "New Post" button to create a new blog entry. In both cases the results are identical:

A thread is created in "Project Blogs" sharing with the community whatever I want to share. A new "Post" shows up in Tigratrus' Blog showing the first 400 (or whatever you have the excerpt set to) characters of the OP followed by a "Read More..." link to the thread and a note that there are "X" comments (which are actually replies to the thread).

POOF! :)

Now it's super easy to keep up with all the details of an individual blog you want to follow, just go to that member's "Blog" page. In fact, it might make sense to merge this functionality with the existing user profile.

In addition there's a single place to go to see an activity stream of ALL Member blogs: The Project Blogs.

As an added benefit, it's perfect for the many existing forums that have a thread based blogging tradition already. Nothing has to change, this just gives them a better interface.

Conclusion

Forums... Blogs... CMS Articles. They are all basically the same thing, User Generated Content, initial post and replies/comments. So let's apply the concepts of MVC design to take the existing content, and present it in different ways to more effectively suit different needs. Google loves blog style home pages, that's why so many large sites go to a WP/Joomla/Drupal CMS homepage. But by taking the creative output of the Admin (and other article writers) and funneling it into "Articles", we deprive the community (forums) of that same creative energy, and also deprive the member of the sense of personal accomplishment that goes with having THEIR content on the home page.

Our communities are all about the people in the forums and their stories. Let's take that energy, that sense of community and show it to the world directly! Give the internet a fresh "VIEW" of our communities ;)
 
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ragtek said:
I think my article system will be exactly what you need:D
Click to expand...
I look forward to seeing it! Nice thing about an active 3rd party dev community is that there is plenty of room for different solutions to the same problem. There is very rarely a "one size fits all" answer.

I do think if you've read my other posts on this thread and think that I'll love your article system... Well, I'm curious how your description of a separate system can jibe with a fully integrated solution that engages, empowers and simplifies the community such as I was describing. Can't wait to see your solution! :)
 
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@ Tigratrus
Simplicity is key. If a system is too complex it won't be used.
Whats simple in installing a new Software and installing a Bridge to get it used? Just if you try to setup Joomla. Its all but not simple.

Most "Real" CMS systems are drastic overkill for what a community site needs. It's not just a case of more capability being better. It's about focusing the efforts of the admins/article authors and your community in the areas where they will have the greatest net effect.
Thats what, in my eyes, Joomla (for example) is. To much to setup just to get a CMS.
Something integrated using the power of xF would be, in my opinion, better.

ANY stovepiped system fragments the community's attention/interaction and thus reduces the rewards for participation of your community members and frequently confuses new visitors.
In your opinion. A well done "Homepage" is more an informative showcase

In the end it always depends on what you want and need. Some of us like to use a simple CMS, some like to use Joomla, WP etc. some want just a forum. Tastes obviously differ.
 
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bogus said:
@ Tigratrus
Simplicity is key. If a system is too complex it won't be used.
Whats simple in installing a new Software and installing a Bridge to get it used? Just if you try to setup Joomla. Its all but not simple.

Most "Real" CMS systems are drastic overkill for what a community site needs. It's not just a case of more capability being better. It's about focusing the efforts of the admins/article authors and your community in the areas where they will have the greatest net effect.
Thats what, in my eyes, Joomla (for example) is. To much to setup just to get a CMS.
Something integrated using the power of xF would be, in my opinion, better.

ANY stovepiped system fragments the community's attention/interaction and thus reduces the rewards for participation of your community members and frequently confuses new visitors.
In your opinion. A well done "Homepage" is more an informative showcase

In the end it always depends on what you want and need. Some of us like to use a simple CMS, some like to use Joomla, WP etc. some want just a forum. Tastes obviously differ.
Click to expand...
Agreed. :)

Joomla! IS way overkill for most sites, that was kinda my point. WP is much simpler to use, but it's still a whole new system, though integrating WP with XF is vastly easier than it was with vB. Perhaps you missed my entire point? I'm advocating a system that uses nothing but XF itself.

I totally agree that tastes and needs differ, and obviously my opinion is just that. ;)

However I'm not basing my opinion on simple speculation, Susan and I have actually USED multiple different CMS systems as well as 3 different Member Blog solutions for vB over the last 6 years. I'm basing my opinion and proposed solution on several years of intense trial and error, troubleshooting and observation of community usage and consequences. The OP of this thread represents the distillation of years of studying this very problem of forum/blog/cms integration.

It's specific.
It's achievable using the existing XF system and a reasonable enhancement of an existing, proven XF addon.
It's an elegant, attractive solution that contains multiple synergies between the components to produce a gestalt end result, the total would be substantially better than the sum of the parts.
The actual usage of the system would be dead easy, it's simply leveraging existing functionality in new ways.
 
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Tigratrus said:
  1. Simplicity is key. If a system is too complex it won't be used.
  2. The greatest value in many UGC sites is... Amazingly enough, the User Generated Content. Being able to simply do an editing pass on that content and instantly schedule it for publication on the home page will make for a better rate of publication of meaningful articles, which google loves.
  3. Taking the creativity needed for really good articles out of the community and putting it into a separate system is a major negative for the community.
  4. If the Forums/Community is the heart of the site, than the homepage should be about showcasing that community in a way that presents meaningful content on the homepage, NOT a bunch of links to latest threads. You want the search engines to go into the forums and dig into the deep content there.
  5. Most "Real" CMS systems are drastic overkill for what a community site needs. It's not just a case of more capability being better. It's about focusing the efforts of the admins/article authors and your community in the areas where they will have the greatest net effect.
  6. ANY stovepiped system fragments the community's attention/interaction and thus reduces the rewards for participation of your community members and frequently confuses new visitors.
Click to expand...

I already liked your posting, but please allow me to quote you once again and say that I wholeheartedly agree with every word you are saying above. Finally someone speaks some total sense when it comes to the whole CMS/Blog/Forum phenomena. I surely hope XenForo Ltd. will do something with your insights/advice. I will switch my (vB powered) production site immediately when something along those lines is integrated in the future.
 
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Jaxel said:
I'm actually working on changing the way modules are layed-out in XenPorta... this is to give the ability for administrators to set up multiple "categories". It will also pave the way towards a XenPorta based Blogging system.
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Awesome! Would that allow multiple "pages", one for each category? As you can probably guess, I'me REALLY excited by the potential that this has as a fully integrated solution for CMS and Blogs all rolled into native XF functionality. :)
 
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Jaxel said:
I'm actually working on changing the way modules are layed-out in XenPorta... this is to give the ability for administrators to set up multiple "categories"
Click to expand...
This is great ! I hope will be soon, cause I need it !
tongue.png
redface.png
 
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Tigratrus said:
The actual usage of the system would be dead easy, it's simply leveraging existing functionality in new ways.
Click to expand...

Very well said, presenting the existing data in a different way rather than creating a complex add-on is certainly positive. An example here, http://www.planetfigure.com/blogs/ is a simple query of users/names id's from the backend, lifted from single forum, just as is the front page (albeit cached every 60min and imagemagick'd ;) ) And yes, I am eagerly waiting to convert XF :)
 
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VERY excited to see the latest addition to Jaxel's signature.
Current Project: XenDiario (Blogs)
Click to expand...
:) :)

Based on his post above it sounds like it may well be the community blogging solution I've been looking for for 3-4 YEARS! :)
That would solve one of my two remaining blocks to migrating to XF. Galleries would be the only remaining stumbling block!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Ironic, but we'll be donating more to Jaxel when we finally migrate, than we paid for the core product! Great, great stuff.
:: snoopy dance ::
 
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I still don't get how we can have a CMS now? Is it using the portal mod and just putting articles in a "forum" then displaying them on the homepage? Is that it? I wish Xenforo would give us an update on timeline and roadmap ahead.
 
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First off, you don't need a specific forum just for articles, just to be clear. :)

Jaxel is working on abstracting the XenPorta addon so that you can have "Categories" of promoted threads. Basically, once XenPorta is extended, you don't NEED a CMS. Write your articles as threads in the appropriate forum, the forum that covers the content that the article is about. Then "promote" that thread to the appropriate category in XenPorta.

Think about it. Why, exactly, do you need to have your articles separate from the forums? What exactly is it that you need a "CMS" system for?
Do you have an editorial staff that you need to coordinate and track a revisions and approval process?

The first step to finding the best system for your particular uses is clearly defining exactly what you want it to do and why. :)
Not all systems are right for all communities, just as all cars/houses/computers etc are largely a matter of individual priorities and preferences.
 
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I'm waiting for an official release and not just a modification to the current system. Then I'll most likely be purchasing a copy of XenForo. Invision Power is a close 2nd, but they still seem "closed off" to 3rd party modifications and support.
 
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Tigratrus said:
Think about it. Why, exactly, do you need to have your articles separate from the forums?
Click to expand...
Because i want to be able to search them seperate (so my users can find the "good content" faster, instead of searching in threads)
search.webp
& because i don't want to have double content or a "fake" system like vb cms (where articlecomments are stored in an seperate "hidden" thread) etc.... and because of... see http://xenforo.com/community/threads/xenblog-xencms-its-already-here.12706/#post-167431 ;)
 
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So what about posting articles inside forum threads and add this "Name Of Title Here (Article)". Putting an addendum at the end of the subject line so people can do a search or we can pull all the threads with that addendum up to the home page via the portal mod. Does this make sense? Or is there an easier way to do it? I don't understand how we can "promote threads". Is that functionality in Xenforo currently? What does that mean exactly?
 
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Think about it this way: Most folks that have run forums for a long time know that you don't add a forum for every *minor* variation of every shade of your niche, because it breaks up the community into too many tiny bits, and deprives them of the critical mass needed for a real community to grow. You don't add a new forum to the system unless there is sufficient population and interest in that particular topic, or a strong overriding reason that that particular topic needs to have it's own forum (permissions etc).

Well, separate system community blogging in a forums based system causes (in my direct experience) *exactly* that sort of problem, only worse. The solution I proposed in the OP lets you consolidate all content generation into the forums itself. The "Blog" forum becomes highly integrated, in fact the "Blog" forum functions wonderfully as a member "activity stream" that shows all posts by all bloggers.

Even with integrated searching (which certainly helps), it's still a fragmentation, and still a net negative in many, many ways.

Onimua's done a great job, but it's still a separate stovepipe for the community. I've BEEN down that exact road before (we used three separate community blogging solutions over 3-4 years, actually 4, but I'm not going to count one that we killed after a couple days) and watched the community interaction fragment and almost destroy the community. What we saw very clearly is that putting a separate, parallel system in place split the community into those that blogged and those that spent time in the forums of their choice. And by splitting the content into separate areas, the blog authors didn't get the approbation and responses they felt they deserved (and many of the blog entries were in fact excellent). The forum readers lost out on seeing a ton of good content, and a lot of the interaction and sense of community was severely damaged.

When we introduced blogs there's was also a marked amount of confusion, people didn't know where to post, many new people were so used to "Blogs" that they didn't even know what a forum WAS and so they would create a blog entry to ask a technical question. Then when nobody answered that question (because they monitored the appropriate forum that covered those kinds of issues), they got frustrated and vanished forever. We added explanatory text to the blog screen warning that blogs were not a good place to ask questions, that they were better used for chronicling a project, but it made not a whit of difference. The Blog system funneled away a lot of new members who then got frustrated and never saw the community in action. If it was all part of the same system , it would be easy enough for a moderator to step in and move the post to the appropriate forum where the new member would be much more likely to get their question answered. Can't do that if they are fundamentally separate systems.

@Brogan: You've said before that you'd rather see main functionality in the core instead of as 3rd party mods. Don't you see that adding blogs is a FAR more fundamental bit of functionality than most addons? If you make blogs a separate system, you're creating a whole separate community! In addition to the fragmentation (which is huge), any improvements/tweaks you add to the forums side, you also have to add to the blogs to maintain a consistent interface. That runs the risk of increasing your maintenance and development problems tremendously.

In contrast, by keeping all content generation IN the forums any new functionality that is added to the XF core system (galleries, signature tweaks, ad positions, notification systems etc etc) is also automatically added to the "Blogs" as well as it's all part of the same system. Anything posted in a member's blog is instantly part of the forums as well, not via a clunky duplication of content, but because the actual content IS part of the forums. The blogs are just another way of presenting that content in a member focused way. Members can move back and forth from "Blogging" to posting in forums seamlessly, because it's all the same thing.

In fact, by having it based on the XenPorta system, you also (depending on the specifics of the implementation) get the ability for members (that have the inclination) to specify Blocks/Modules/Widgets to customize their particular blog. And you're not required to maintain a separate set of modules either as the same modules you develop for the homepage layout can potentially be re-used in the blogs.
 
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