Two Steps Behind

[steven s]

Some people can't handle change well.
We had a vB3 site that was converted to drupal. Participation dropped except for people complaining how terrible it was.
I thought I'd bring the forum into the 21st century with xenforo.
Participation is very slow. I've had a couple wanting to go back to vB3 basically because it's what they are used to.
I see the complainers lurking and they are not posting. IDK. Change takes time.

On our xf forum we had no choice to convert because our vb3 forum was hacked to pieces.

I need to ask.
Did converting Paracast bring anything to the table to your members or did you do it for yourself?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

The intent was to make it easier to manage for us and for the members. The theory being that they'd enjoy better interaction with fellow members, and that we'd bring more traffic to the forums. So far, not.

I agree -- some people just don't except change, whether you can believe in it or not. Too bad the request for helpful suggestions at times degenerated into something else here. I shortened the News area, although it doesn't show up on anything but the home page. As to the new Aurora theme or something else, I have offered several links to members for them to consider the possibilities before I do something that is only window dressing. It may well be that, besides the basic layout, I need a few add-ons to better mimic the vB experience.

 

[steven s]

I agree -- some people just don't except change, whether you can believe in it or not.

Is your age demographic older? I realize older is a relative term.
Whenever I have changed forum software I've always been faced with, what was wrong with the last one?
I think for some sites there will be an adjustment period. Some more than others.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

If you mean 25-49 or 25-54, yes.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Another issue: Should a theme be simple enough to stay in the background and let you do your thing, or front and center? I've tended to support the former. I think the forum should be attractive and easy to navigate, but too many widgets and interface flourishes might just be distracting to posters who just want to say something not get involved in the rest of that stuff. Maybe that's a Mac versus Windows concept, but still...

 

[steven s]

If you mean 25-49 or 25-54, yes.

That's a wide range. I wondered if it was more like 20 somethings or +50.
Guess it comes down to change.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Change you can believe in, I suppose.

 

[steven s]

Change you can believe in, I suppose.

I'm sure. I wouldn't have gone with xenforo unless I felt that this would be the state of the art.
My first Mac was in the late 80s. I'm used to being an early adopter and used to take the heat for it.
That's OK. Just need to wait it out. It will come around just as people now drool

over anything Apple comes out with.

 

[Deepmartini]

OK this is a misunderstanding on words. By "argue" I did not mean attack or quarrel. To me argument is a difference of opinion not an attack. To argue is to contradict, or put a different view. That is what you weer doing. You weren't saying that their views were impressive and important. You were saying yours were. As I keep saying this was understandable but not helpful.

Morgain, I think Gene set us both on "ignore", so unfortunately he won't have the benefit of our advice (as he can't see it). I thought you had some good ideas and I want you to know that they're appreciated. It takes a lot of time and effort to write long detailed posts like that and I hope you won't be deterred from participating on this forum or helping others.

 

[Morgain]

Morgain, I think Gene set us both on "ignore", so unfortunately he won't have the benefit of our advice (as he can't see it). I thought you had some good ideas and I want you to know that they're appreciated. It takes a lot of time and effort to write long detailed posts like that and I hope you won't be deterred from participating on this forum or helping others.

Deep good oh then we can merrily chat without irritating poor Gene!
I don't think he really got the benefit of the advice even when he could see it. Dunno if you know paradigm theory but it's a good wheeze. Like if people are living in a worldview then other worldviews are not a matter of adding on information, but a reality shift. So flat earth medievals could not imagine a global earth, any more than we can imagine living under the terror of black magic. It's not that one is superior but so different the two can't connect.
I think some admins think in terms of software almost entirely while others just as intensively think in terms of people mesh. The two views have trouble understanding each other. Not that Gene or I are those kind of extremes, but the gap is big enough to mean we pass in the night.

I do most happily thank you for your generous posting both now and earlier. Don't worry though I'm not put off. I'm a deeply community animal and will go on helping others if only to repay the masses of help I get. This particular community is blessedly free of the usual snipes and bullying that happens online. It's amazing how few grumpies there are.

 

[Deepmartini]

Deep good oh then we can merrily chat without irritating poor Gene!
I don't think he really got the benefit of the advice even when he could see it. Dunno if you know paradigm theory but it's a good wheeze. Like if people are living in a worldview then other worldviews are not a matter of adding on information, but a reality shift. So flat earth medievals could not imagine a global earth, any more than we can imagine living under the terror of black magic. It's not that one is superior but so different the two can't connect.
I think some admins think in terms of software almost entirely while others just as intensively think in terms of people mesh. The two views have trouble understanding each other. Not that Gene or I are those kind of extremes, but the gap is big enough to mean we pass in the night.

I do most happily thank you for your generous posting both now and earlier. Don't worry though I'm not put off. I'm a deeply community animal and will go on helping others if only to repay the masses of help I get. This particular community is blessedly free of the usual snipes and bullying that happens online. It's amazing how few grumpies there are.

Yes, the community here is strong and that's what makes it so special. And the Xenforo software helps make it grow and blossom further because it makes everything so easy and fun to use! But you have to start with a good core--and that's making members feel appreciated so that they WANT to come back. Software alone will never do it. It's your attitude and how you relate to your members that can make or break a community. If you're rotten, snobby or treat members badly, they'll simply go elsewhere. Members are not slaves. They have a mind and a voice of their own and want basic human respect. I think you brought up a good point which all forum owners should listen to. Software is a big part of success...but not the magic solution.

 

[Morgain]

Software is a big part of success...but not the magic solution.

This is a major issue in my own professional field - which is where I have another forum transferring to XF in a few months.
My pro field is online education and I run an online school where among other things I train the teachers.

Far too often the approach in education is to see online/ software methods as replacing teachers, cutting costs by cutting out a lot of the human element.
Going right back to the basics of systems analysis, you don't CUT the requirement for human input, you actually need the same quantity of human servicing. But each human can do a lot more.
However that in turn puts a lot more pressure on those humans - their skills have to be so much greater.

For my teachers that means intensely pressured work. The result is that GOOD teachers can positively thrive with online resources. Weak ones crash. The situation is pitiless but productive.
What is meant by GOOD here is people handling. Being supportive, nurturing of respect etc - not pushing your own point of view but shutting up and making space for the client group (students, in our case members) to get heard.

I've fired quite a few teachers who couldn't adapt. That usually meant they weren't that good to start with. In the privaxcy of an ordinary classroom they could get by. With online records exposing them they couldn't.

Admins are similar. What we do is highly exposed. We can fondly believe we are 'consulting' and 'listening.' But scanning the posts shows us up on what we actually do.
I think being an admin is a strange hybrid of geek and extravert - an unusual mix. Geeks tend to want to hide behind the walls of software but there we are right out there with our thoughts and assumptions laid bare.

If I think about it too much I'll run away and stop doing it!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Morgain, I think Gene set us both on "ignore", so unfortunately he won't have the benefit of our advice (as he can't see it). I thought you had some good ideas and I want you to know that they're appreciated. It takes a lot of time and effort to write long detailed posts like that and I hope you won't be deterred from participating on this forum or helping others.

Nobody is on "ignore." I never got any Alerts about any new messages.

Your first piece of "advice" assumed facts without evidence, and came close to flame bait. I'm also surprised that my original statements were mostly ignored in preparing this "advice," where I simply stated that the switch from vB to XF resulted in a drop in traffic. We had a cause and an effect, and I wanted to see what could be done to address member concerns about the changeover, which is clearly why the traffic drop occurred. How do I know? They said so themselves.

Instead, a few of you decided that, after running this forum for six years, through co-hosts and moderator changes, that I was doing it wrong all along, period, and somehow, after all these years, turning off members I had never turned off before, even though the event followed a forum changeover.

I was more proactive this time. I provided advanced intimations of a changeover, adapted two smaller forums to get member response, and did offer a lot of information, via email newsletter and in the forum, to help guide members. Nobody asked if I ever did a forum changeover of this scope previously, because if you did, you'd know that we have had SMF, MyBB and two versions of vB over the years, and the forum was always on an upward path after an initial short-term drop during the changeover. I didn't change over those periods. In fact, I was more proactive this time. Maybe you cannot grasp the fact that some people just don't like XF, period, or are too set in their ways to adapt.

In my case, I'm not going back and will continue to invite constructive comments on how to help guide people towards the new way of doing things. If there are add-ons or new skins that can help, fine. The basic structure of the forum hasn't changed much in these changeovers in terms of features, the types of add-ons, etc. We just adapted to the structure of a new system. Or maybe it's going to be a waiting process. Traffic has gone up slightly in the past week.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Deep good oh then we can merrily chat without irritating poor Gene!
I don't think he really got the benefit of the advice even when he could see it. Dunno if you know paradigm theory but it's a good wheeze. Like if people are living in a worldview then other worldviews are not a matter of adding on information, but a reality shift. So flat earth medievals could not imagine a global earth, any more than we can imagine living under the terror of black magic. It's not that one is superior but so different the two can't connect.
I think some admins think in terms of software almost entirely while others just as intensively think in terms of people mesh. The two views have trouble understanding each other. Not that Gene or I are those kind of extremes, but the gap is big enough to mean we pass in the night.

I do most happily thank you for your generous posting both now and earlier. Don't worry though I'm not put off. I'm a deeply community animal and will go on helping others if only to repay the masses of help I get. This particular community is blessedly free of the usual snipes and bullying that happens online. It's amazing how few grumpies there are.

You still don't get it. The forum has been there for 6 years, through several serious system changes. This is the only time that we've seen a prolonged traffic drop for weeks after a changeover. It is cause and effect: Forum change, traffic/post drop-off. Nothing else!

That I've somehow abused the members for 6 years is sheer nonsense, although we did have a moderator a couple of years back who was somewhat overeager to ban members he felt might be abusive. With his departure, we actually restored members to the forums and mended fences.

Remember, I am only one of several people who interacts with members in these forums. I have four moderators now. Maybe they're no good either? Maybe they're turning off members and keeping them away? I've been in this business long enough to know that's not so.

I want constructive comments and criticisms, sure, but not assuming facts that just ain't so.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Yes, the community here is strong and that's what makes it so special. And the Xenforo software helps make it grow and blossom further because it makes everything so easy and fun to use! But you have to start with a good core--and that's making members feel appreciated so that they WANT to come back. Software alone will never do it. It's your attitude and how you relate to your members that can make or break a community. If you're rotten, snobby or treat members badly, they'll simply go elsewhere. Members are not slaves. They have a mind and a voice of their own and want basic human respect. I think you brought up a good point which all forum owners should listen to. Software is a big part of success...but not the magic solution.

But if the admin and moderators have been doing the same thing all along, and a forum conversion kills traffic, isn't it fair to assume that the forum conversion has to be, in part, responsible?

Further, do you not understand that some people just don't find the XF environment to be comfortable for them? Maybe they'll adapt, but there's no guarantee that it'll happen. Maybe others will join the forum to replace the ones who departed. Or maybe we cater to an older audience that just doesn't tolerate drastic changes. The previous forum conversions have been to systems that are not nearly as different as XF.

I left vB for the reasons many of you did. I had the option to renewing two of my forums by buying full vB licenses or going elsewhere. I had to cope with ongoing bugs and attempts to sell new products rather than fix the ones I had already licensed. I thought XF would be the best solution compared to the other options. In the end, I think I made the right choice.

 

[Steve F]

Gene, I think there is a lot of space from the top of the page to the actual content as been stated already. One thing you could do is minimize your notice by dividing it in to 3-4 notices because each line is about something different. I noticed this on your other sites as well.

A new skin with a fresh feel would bring some life back I think also. The logo just doesn't do it for me either and I'm sure you could get one done at a reasonable price. Check out this site.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

We had the same logo on the previous forum. It was universally praised by our members.

But I'd certainly consider other options and skins. I've already posted done links for members to consider. But none of this seems to address the concerns expressed by members.

 

[Kim]

There is an awful lot of "stuff" before you get to the meat on your site Gene Very tall very thin logo, doing very little for you.. then an ugly ad on the right, then the nav bar, then another block of ads, then that enormous block notice.. then we're finally at the good stuff.

I also find those mods that use just the avatar to represent someone... like your Recent Posts mod and the Today's Birthday... both use the Avatar rather than a username, I personally dislike that style of presenting data as it is immensely confusing, and frankly meaningless... either people change avatars and any reference to whom it might be is lost, or they are not using one at all, and you end up with a block of the default avatar.

If it is possible to change those to normal username I would give that some consideration.

Here is what it looks like on this laptop I am using currently.. 1366x768 resolution.

As you can see I cannot actually see any content on your site at all without scrolling significantly, it might be less intrusive if you are logged in, but many may not know how to keep themselves logged in.

Like many have already commented, when I think "paranormal" the last colours that spring to mind are blue and white and orange. I would be finding a theme that is a little more appropriate for your content perhaps, a more user friendly mid toned theme.

If you are thinking that perhaps things like buttons instead of the links on posts would be better for your members you can pretty easily do this yourself, just ask and I am sure that there are plenty of people willing to lend a hand

Change can be very challenging for many people, I also think you have done the right thing, and that you can get through these teething problems with a few changes

Best of luck with it anyway!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Some of these ad placements ae contracted for. The previous forum also had that layout. As for some of the sidebar stuff, I await better options. But the developer of some of that stuff appears to be AWOL.

I'd prefer text to icons too.

 

[yavuz]

Some of these ad placements ae contracted for. The previous forum also had that layout. As for some of the sidebar stuff, I await better options. But the developer of some of that stuff appears to be AWOL.

I'd prefer text to icons too.

I asked xfrocks to add a "Today's Birthday" to his Widget Framework. He promised it will be included in the next release. [bd] Widget Framework Latest posts, threads, polls, custom html & php can easily set up with help of this addon.