Two Steps Behind

[Gene Steinberg]

I agree with Morgain's assessment. Members don't appreciate being talked down to, and they want to feel included on decisions which affect their community. There are many forums to participate in online and I suspect that people simply got fed up with the tone and went elsewhere. People are investing their time to participate and need to feel appreciated.

Every other site that has converted to Xenforo has seen a traffic increase and lots more user interaction and activity, search the forum here and you'll see thread after thread proving this. So that leaves other external factors as the underlying cause.

His assessment is doesn't correctly describe my responses. More to the point, until this new thread appeared, most everyone who responded to the new layout said they liked it.

Besides, when I was considering the new forum, I actually posted some messages about it, and shared more detailed information with our moderators for their input. They've always been brought into the process.

 

[Morgain]

My apologies for wasting your time with irrelevance Gene.
I have been running online communities for almost 15 years since 1996, and offline networks on a community basis for about 35 years. Very successfully: local, national, international.
I am not great at coding but I do know human nature in groups, and how leadership affects people in groups. I offered my experience as a responsibility of expertise, following many years of helping others nurture their own communities. I trust you will forgive your wasted minutes in reading my post.

Ultimately you're the person in charge on your forum. Whether people stay or go is very much up to you and no one else.
You were very brave and intelligent to ask for help the way you did. If you feel the help provided is unsuitable that is your decision to make. Only you really know what fits your board.
However I would respectfully suggest that your last post was somewhat lacking in appreciation and courtesy. No doubt you are under the strain of the first few years of a new community so that is understandable, but not impressive.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And I've been running online communities since the early 1990s when I was a paid forum moderator for AOL, if we're going to cite experience.

I'm looking for constructive comments, but when the comments mischaracterize my treatment of members questioning the changes, you lose me from then on.

What I'm seeing here is that it's the small things so far. A few features that worked one way with vBulletin are different or lacking with XF. If you look at the comments we've received, that's where the specifics are. The rest is, we'll, that it's different and they're used to other forum structures. XF is new.

And, once again, when the forum switch was made, I posted a number of messages about the new features and they way they worked, and always opened the discussions for input and suggestions. To suggest otherwise is to suggest something that just ain't so.

 

[Morgain]

Like I said Gene it's up to you. You know best.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Gene, one of the things I read on your forum that people don't like, are the generic way the "likes" are done by default. This mod was just released if you haven't see it and should spice things up a little: http://xenforo.com/community/threads/post-ratings-taking-likes-to-the-next-level.25446/unread

It's an alternative, but I was hoping for something more minimalist. In vB there's a Thanks add-on, the equivalent of XF's Like, but a little more prominent. I suppose it's the latter that make it preferable. Anyone interested in developing something of that sort?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Like I said Gene it's up to you. You know best.

I appreciate the help if you're helpful. If you want to try again, go ahead and look at our Talk About the Forum board and see how I've always introduced new forum designs and features with directions and have invited members to participate. Fact is, most people don't bother. They just want to read, or maybe post, and get on. They aren't interested in the nuts and bolts. But if they think something is wrong, they'll speak up. The key is to see what needs to be done to make them comfortable with the new design and move on. But some of that may just require Add-ons that don't exist yet.

 

[Jesepi]

One thing my users absolutely hated about the switch from vbulletin was the changing of the default font that posts were built on. This was after some poking around with the new style and not really getting much feedback other than "i don't know whats wrong, its just not right"

After converting back to what we used before, the feedback was very positive.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Good thought, except that it's been a couple of months since the changeover. Changing back from serif to sans serif now might be more jarring than the original changeover. But thanks again.

 

[-GR-]

Wow, ask for advice and tell them what they should have said and argue with them, step out of your own mind for a minute and read this thread and maybe you might get your user's thoughts......

Morgain offered some very good information.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Actually, Morgan made suggestions that were based on the false assumption that I was attacking members who had expressed concerns about the forum change, whereas I was simply explaining what we did and what we could do and inviting further comments. That's obvious if you read what I wrote, and my other comments in my forums about the changes.

By attacking me and assuming things about the forum transition that, in large part, did not apply, it made it difficult to consider any of his other suggestions.

The fact is that I was very upfront about the new design and the reasons for the changes, posted messages about using the new features, and, in fact, sent out two newsletter mailings to the members with a few short paragraphs about the new forum design.

More to the point: I welcome helpful suggestions. But when people just post stuff without thought as to what is really going on, it doesn't help move the discussion forward. Morgan wasn't attacked so much as I pointed out that he attacked me and my conduct with an erroneous premise. You should be considering the conduct of the messenger instead.

 

[Deepmartini]

Like I said Gene it's up to you. You know best.

Yes Gene knows best. He asked for help and we all tried to offer him some suggestions but no matter what we say, he takes constructive criticism of his forum (which he asked us for) as a personal attack. Again, the software alone won't make or break a community. If the members themselves are unhappy or don't like your tone or feel that they are included in the site's decisions, they simply WON'T return. On the other hand, I've seen thriving communities on antiquated software like Yahoo Groups. If people feel a connection and a sense of community, they will return again and again. If they feel "talked down to" or don't like the all the donation buttons, begging for change on the email list, professorial tone, etc. then they won't come back. They won't even bother unsubscribing from your email list or deleting their member account, they simply will just not come back. Gene, everyone wants you to succeed and are trying to help, what we offer are objective observations from the outside. When you're too close to something, you can't see the forest through the trees. What you do with our suggestions is up to you.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Yes Gene knows best. He asked for help and we all tried to offer him some suggestions but no matter what we say, he takes constructive criticism of his forum (which he asked us for) as a personal attack. Again, the software alone won't make or break a community. If the members themselves are unhappy or don't like your tone or feel that they are included in the site's decisions, they simply WON'T return. On the other hand, I've seen thriving communities on antiquated software like Yahoo Groups. If people feel a connection and a sense of community, they will return again and again. If they feel "talked down to" or don't like the all the donation buttons, begging for change on the email list, professorial tone, etc. then they won't come back. They won't even bother unsubscribing from your email list or deleting their member account, they simply will just not come back. Gene, everyone wants you to succeed and are trying to help, what we offer are objective observations from the outside. When you're too close to something, you can't see the forest through the trees. What you do with our suggestions is up to you.

Your message makes it clear you have another agenda here, and it's not to help me or my forums.

In terms of Donation buttons, I'm sure you have been around long enough to know that they are common on forums and other sites, which is why there are add-ons for that purpose, and I will not get into further discussion on any other issues about offering such an option. As to including members in the decisions we made, as you can see from my responses and the information that I've provided, they WERE included in the decisions, invited to help, and we asked them for suggestions on an ongoing basis. I also made my threads Sticky, so they'd be at the top of the list whenever people visited the forum. Our moderators were also invited into the process from day one, and in the planning stages.

More to the point: Participation in our paranormal forum community had been quite good, despite your unproven claims to the contrary. But after the forum changeover, it dropped, with just occasional spurts, with very little activity over the past few weeks (it was closer to normal yesterday). It has nothing to do with any other event on my shows or sites. It's before and after, period.

No, I didn't take constructive criticism as a personal attack. I simply questioned one person who went off on a tangent assuming facts not in evidence, and it's clear to me you are on the same kick.

I welcome constructive criticism when it's offered, as other posters know full well, but when people try to make the issues something more, as you've done, you will, from here on, be ignored.

And I await Morgain's apology, and yours, for starting the nastiness.

 

[-GR-]

Actually, Morgan made suggestions that were based on the false assumption that I was attacking members who had expressed concerns about the forum change, whereas I was simply explaining what we did and what we could do and inviting further comments. That's obvious if you read what I wrote, and my other comments in my forums about the changes.

By attacking me and assuming things about the forum transition that, in large part, did not apply, it made it difficult to consider any of his other suggestions.

The fact is that I was very upfront about the new design and the reasons for the changes, posted messages about using the new features, and, in fact, sent out two newsletter mailings to the members with a few short paragraphs about the new forum design.

More to the point: I welcome helpful suggestions. But when people just post stuff without thought as to what is really going on, it doesn't help move the discussion forward. Morgan wasn't attacked so much as I pointed out that he attacked me and my conduct with an erroneous premise. You should be considering the conduct of the messenger instead.

I really don't know why I am wasting my time replying to this but for some reason I have time to kill while at work. From what I have read in this thread and what I read on the thread that you linked to... you would be one of those people that are impossible to reason with. I deal with them all the time between coworkers and the occasional user at my site.






With that being said here is some copies from the feedback thread that you linked to:

tyder001 said:
Is it just me or have some other longtime posters been a little put off by the new format? I'm getting more used to it and I've started posting again. But, I did like the layout of the previous format. Still, everything changes so I'll see how this goes. I've just noticed a lot of people seem to be absent from the discussion. Could be the Christmas holidays have a little to do with it. Also, there are many new faces and that's a good thing.

Your reply:
I suspect the holidays mostly reduced participation. I can't really see why the new format would put off people. It's much faster and easier to use.

Yes the holidays could explain some slow down but that isn't the part of the reply I want to comment on. Stating that you can't see why gives the impression that you are not willing to hear the reasons why people are put off.

tyder001 then posted:
I think the old format was just more user friendly. The current post were right there in big letters and it just seemed easier to keep up. The new forum puts the post over to the side and it's harder at first glance to see the order of the post. Still, I do think Christmas is a busy time and more than likely message boards and other activities take a back seat. Maybe this will grow on me. I do notice some of the older posters seem to be posting less but again that may just be a cycle and not something that will continue. Anyway, I haven't made it a regular stop myself lately. But, then here I am now so ya just never know.


and your reply:
Actually there are different ways to see the current stuff. Recent Posts in the right sidebar shows them in the order in which they were posted. Click What's New in the navigation bar to see the rest.

Each separate board has a Latest link on the right side to let you see the most recent thread and who posted the message.

We also have a Popular Content feature in the navigation bar and the footer.

Don't know how we can make this any more obvious. You have four ways to check the latest and greatest postings.

If you want to be alerted to the latest posts via email, click on a board, choose Watch Forum on the right, below the navigation bar, and select the options you want. That's five ways.

Starting with stating "actually" is the wrong way, makes a person feel like you are saying they are wrong (wow, seems to be a theme)

Then, you say.... "Don't know how we can make this any more obvious". That is like calling your member base idiots because they just don't have the same thoughts as you. (wow, falls in the same theme again.)


Good luck with your community.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I see you'd rather pick words apart than understand what is happening. The look, the feel, the lack of certain features they depended on or the changes in those features have clearly combined to make the forum experience less comfortable. They said as much. In providing some information to guide them to the features, as I've done, you'd rather see if you object to a word choice than provide real constructive suggestions as to what might be changed to make the forum a more comfortable experience.

Obviously, there are changes I can't make. I cannot give them the add-ons from vBulletin that we used, so I had to use the closest substitutes I could find and hope that better ones will come.

I also informed the members that if Recent Posts didn't do the job, hopefully new features would.

Some of you have posted constructive suggestions. Others went into attack mode picking apart words that even the members themselves didn't object to. When I say I don't know how to make something more obvious, I am inviting suggestions as to a better way to accomplish the task.

Once again, I welcome constructive suggestions, when I find them. But if they are laced with attacks, they will end up serving nobody. Saying I don't like your word choice in one or two messages doesn't help us improve the forum and make it more fun for the members. Sorry you aren't seeing this.

 

[Deepmartini]

I welcome constructive criticism when it's offered, as other posters know full well, but when people try to make the issues something more, as you've done, you will, from here on, be ignored. And I await Morgain's apology, and yours, for starting the nastiness.

I see no nastiness. Morgain was being very helpful. Again it's that "professorial" tone and "talking down" to people that community members don't like. Maybe that's why they haven't returned to your forum.

Your message makes it clear you have another agenda here, and it's not to help me or my forums.

There are no agendas here except for trying to offer advice and help you with your forum. Just because you deal with conspiracy theories on a daily basis (in your forum), doesn't mean there are any "conspiracies" going-on here. The community here at Xenforo is trying to help you. We want everyone to succeed.

 

[yavuz]

Webmasters should carefully evaluate if one or multiple features they have been using with a software will have an impact when they change over another software that doesn't offer them. I've seen sucessfull transitions made here, most of them had a full functioning test installation avaliable where they invited selected users to look around and take their feedback. Likewise they paid people to make custom adjustments, modifications, themes etc.

I think, most of the time, the common mistake is to change the software without presenting a functioning test enviroment and get feedback for beginners. Users tent to say "it's fine" without being fully aware of the features and functionalitys or the missing elements they have been using before.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I see no nastiness. Morgain was being very helpful. Again it's that "professorial" tone and "talking down" to people that community members don't like. Maybe that's why they haven't returned to your forum.

There are no agendas here except for trying to offer advice and help you with your forum. Just because you deal with conspiracy theories on a daily basis (in your forum), doesn't mean there are any "conspiracies" going-on here. The community here at Xenforo is trying to help you. We want everyone to succeed.

Once again, if you have something constructive to say, do so. Otherwise, please pester someone else.

 

[-GR-]

Once again, if you have something constructive to say, do so. Otherwise, please pester someone else.

I got an idea, go back to vb so we don't have to read your belittling posts anymore. That would be a win/win.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Webmasters should carefully evaluate if one or multiple features they have been using with a software will have an impact when they change over another software that doesn't offer them. I've seen sucessfull transitions made here, most of them had a full functioning test installation avaliable where they invited selected users to look around and take their feedback. Likewise they paid people to make custom adjustments, modifications, themes etc.

I think, most of the time, the common mistake is to change the software without presenting a functioning test enviroment and get feedback for beginners. Users tent to say "it's fine" without being fully aware of the features and functionalitys or the missing elements they have been using before.

Good ideas. I actually did invite my moderators to examine XF and the forums before we made the transition. As to the changed/missing features, it's not a forum of tech professionals. Sometimes you don't know until you make it live how they'll react as a whole, since there's a tremendous divergence of opinion on our boards. As you see from the responses, they actually had to use the new boards for a while before they decided what they liked or didn't like.

Before converting our largest board, in fact, I converted one with very little activity, and let it out for a few weeks just to see if we'd get more traffic and some regulars. The input I got was good, so I went with a second board, and, finally The Paracast forum.

And I do wish I had a budget to hire people. For the most part, I've had to just dabble with this stuff myself, ask a few questions here and hope for the best. Indeed, if was the help on these boards that allowed me to get past some serious issues, such as trying to get the vB4 redirections working, so links to old threads would function properly.

But again, you're providing the sort of guidance that I hoped for when I started this thread, and before a few people got sidetracked into irrelevant areas of attack.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I got an idea, go back to vb so we don't have to read your belittling posts anymore. That would be a win/win.

I'm the one who was belittled when I asked for guidance and was attacked by a couple of people rather than given workable or at least relevant ideas. As far as belittling posts are concerned, take a closer look in your mirror. If you can't be helpful, maybe look for something else to waste your time on.