Some recourse to recoup funds from nonresponsive add-on developers

[EQnoble]

That's referring to digital content as in movies, not software as in programs (add-ons).

You would think that but upon reading it myself just now-

Clear and specific rights for digital content: For instance, a consumer who downloads a game which is then not working properly may currently receive as compensation only a discount on downloading other games in the future. With the proposed directive, consumers will be able to request such problems to be fixed and, if this is not feasible or not done properly, to obtain a price reduction or terminate the contract and be fully reimbursed.

A game while entertaining is a piece of software, and if it is law there would be no distinction between entertaining software or let's say motor control software. I am guessing here but if it mentions games and says 'for instance' that is broad and could be any other piece of software.

If not I guess that they imply that games are more valued than industrial/commercial applications.

"Supplier's liability for defects: If the digital content is defective, the consumer can ask for a remedy. There will be no time limit to the supplier's liability for such defects, because -unlike goods- digital content is not subject to wear and tear."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-6265_en.htm

This is absolutely insane. Every fiber of my mental tells me "HAVE NO PART IN THIS" and it all boils down to accountability.

This may work for your country but extend that to many different nations and states each with their own law and common practice and you end up with a world of hurt.

Also if you look at software you can discover problems with this approach. I will create a scenario that could by all accounts happen and it is to show the difficulty in determining who holds the burden of responsibility in a digital world built upon layers and layers of software.

If I wrote a piece of software in Q3 2009 compiled to run on windows 7 and had a business model in which there were to be no version updates major or minor other than ones need specifically for security services and would only charge if I made an actual rewrite which constituted a different product and never did it but the original version chugged on and worked like a good little horse for time to come...until let's say in 2014 windows get a security patch that essentially changes it's API with reference to objects and changes the way I need to account for my handling of interfaces or whatever jargon and ends up breaking my work years later through no fault of my own as I was using their guidelines.

From my perspective I would have fulfilled my obligations completely and since the security flaw was in microsoft's product not mine (assuming you have the same contract with them as you inherently have with me by the above document you link to) they are essentially responsible for the problem since what I did was standard and didn't become wrong until microsoft made it wrong.

Would this legislation you mention also make Microsoft liable to reimburse software developers for fixing their product after Microsoft breaks it due to a major security flaw of theirs?

For that matter, if Microsoft EOL's the operating system in 7 years and makes a new OS are they required to supply you with new versions when they come out and are your favorite software titles respective firms also responsible for supplying you with updates for your updates?

On that note would Microsoft even be allowed to EOL a software title/OS without every single consumer being able to receive a full refund for the advertised retail price as soon as it is no longer supported?

I feel like a bad guy right now but it's as if I am a colander manufacturer the way I poke holes in that idea like it's my job. If I was actually worried about being held to those kinds of standards I would be inspired to write pages of scenarios that make that legislation worth less than the paper it's not written on.


A side note...

Well...America drove much manufacturing work overseas in the name of bottom dollar and locale advantage, I see things like this involving digital products starting a trickling back of modern businesses to the US. If that brings Xenforo to new home turf so that it can provide a better price point on a better and better software title that's completely fine with me.

 

[sbj]

You would think that but upon reading it myself just now-

Look back on page 2 of this thread, last message, it is definitely clear with multiple examples.

This is absolutely insane. Every fiber of my mental tells me "HAVE NO PART IN THIS" and it all boils down to accountability.

To be fair, it is also stated that national laws could change the time limit, if I understood it correctly, but first overall all EU countries will have that "no limit" limitation.

Also if you look at software you can discover problems with this approach. I will create a scenario that could by all accounts happen and it is to show the difficulty in determining who holds the burden of responsibility in a digital world built upon layers and layers of software.

Sure you can. But it is not the problem of customers, it is the problem of lawyers. EU tries to protect customers and of course each case will be different, but that is not our problem.

From my perspective I would have fulfilled my obligations completely and since the security flaw was in microsoft's product not mine (assuming you have the same contract with them as you inherently have with me by the above document you link to) they are essentially responsible for the problem since what I did was standard and didn't become wrong until microsoft made it wrong.

In such a situation (what you described with windows) you should be on the safe side. Cause the agreements and warranties only count for that time of delivery. You can't be made accountable for things which changed later and made your software not working. By agreement, you had to deliver a software with specific situations (on that given time, that given windows installation) and you delivered as promised. Unless your work was very very poor coded (like if the act was grossly negligent), then you can be made accountable.

All what you say after are the same examples. For later changes you can't be made accountable.

Well...America drove much manufacturing work overseas in the name of bottom dollar and locale advantage, I see things like this involving digital products starting a trickling back of modern businesses to the US. If that brings Xenforo to new home turf so that it can provide a better price point on a better and better software title that's completely fine with me.

I don't think this will be the case. I mean USA is already considered to be the place of digital products. All kind of big businesses are in California, all worldwide most biggest digital products come from there.
But EU is also a big pool. I don't think this will make businesses go back to USA, if in first place those ones left USA for other markets.

 

[The Grand Potentate]

Jesus guys, way to lose sight of the forest for the trees. There have been a handful of these threads lately and they all have the same thing in common - people need help on this forum with the items being listed for sale. I'd like to think that you all would be able to get the general gist after all this time and not continue to reply with "well, you know, buyer beware and all is written at the top in that link up there..."

 

[EQnoble]

It's relative. In a thread regarding what is expected from software developers a concerned member mentions legislation or pending legislation that may or may not effect a focused zone of or all of the EU and as XF is in the EU it may be worth mentioning and as much as I argue sbj's point and the content of the link he referenced I respect his right to mention it and reserve my own rights to comment on that.

 

[The Grand Potentate]

It's relative. In a thread regarding what is expected from software developers a concerned member mentions legislation or pending legislation that may or may not effect a focused zone of or all of the EU and as XF is in the EU it may be worth mentioning and as much as I argue sbj's point and the content of the link he referenced I respect his right to mention it and reserve my own rights to comment on that.

Two things - First off, commas. I know you're on a brain vacation but the rest of us need to hold on to what sanity we have left. Second, this thread was not about software developers. It was about the owners of this forum and platform doing something to attempt to protect their customers from the, lets call them 'bad actors', in play here. You guys went off the rails into EU law and other topics of discussion irrelevant to this thread's intention.

 

[EQnoble]

Second, this thread was not about software developers.

There should be some xenforo-enabled recourse for customers who purchase add-ons from developers that are nonresponsive to queries, help, support, or anything. As it is, when we buy something from an add-on developer, we're "on our own," or so it seems. If developers are going to sell things under the umbrella of xenforo, I feel that xenforo ought to offer customers some protection.

I believe it most definitely has to do with software developers since without them this discussion would not even be happening nor would it have a need. The very thing this thread boils down to is the software developers in my opinion.

I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the notion of just get on the bus, (there's a comma for you buddy) I have an opinion and at least my opinion is in the ballpark of the title and first post and got there by natural progression.

Your opinion addresses not only my choice of punctuation (or lack thereof) but the acceptability of my opinion.

So to summarize...

I can comment but only if it suits your standards. Check.

Someone brings up a law that potentially will effect this site and 3rd party software in reference to the thread title and me responding to it is off the rails. Check.



If you think that nobody should have an opinion that is not completely polarized and yesman'd about life it's really not my problem so we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[The Grand Potentate]

I believe it most definitely has to do with software developers since without them this discussion would not even be happening nor would it have a need. The very thing this thread boils down to is the software developers in my opinion.

Well we clearly disagree then and, as such, your opinion is wrong.

I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the notion of just get on the bus, (there's a comma for you buddy) I have an opinion and at least my opinion is in the ballpark of the title and first post and got there by natural progression.

See, this is where you keep going off the reservation. At this point, there is no bus. Just four wheels and no frame. There's no policies or rules in place to stem any of the behavior we've been seeing and the users are complaining about. Got that, sparky?

Your opinion addresses not only my choice of punctuation (or lack thereof) but the acceptability of my opinion.

Yes, I just established that your opinion is wrong. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with this.

So to summarize...

I can comment but only if it suits your standards. Check.

First, this is FAR TOO LONG FOR A SUMMARY. I think what we really need here is a dictionary. You can comment at any point in time and on anything you like. Its that your exceptionally long winded replies are tedious at best. This doesn't need to be an EU treatise.

Someone brings up a law that potentially will effect this site and 3rd party software in reference to the thread title and me responding to it is off the rails. Check.

Yes, it is, because this is not a legal matter. At the very beginning of the thread it was established that no money was changing hands. Bringing up laws on EU software warranties is asinine at best. No one is filing suit here.

If you think that nobody should have an opinion that is not completely polarized and yesman'd about life it's really not my problem so we will have to agree to disagree here.

this is patently ridiculous. you're being ridiculous now.

 

[EQnoble]

Well we clearly disagree then and, as such, your opinion is wrong.

A difference of opinion does not establish correctness and the difference between an opinion and a fact is pretty self explanatory in regards to the terms of right and wrong.

See, this is where you keep going off the reservation. At this point, there is no bus. Just four wheels and no frame. There's no policies or rules in place to stem any of the behavior we've been seeing and the users are complaining about. Got that, sparky?

Wheels can roll without a sturdy frame and that is exactly the point I am trying to make, thanks buckaroo.

Yes, I just established that your opinion is wrong. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with this.

The FACT is an OPINION can not be wrong given that an opinion is used to express that which is not fact so I am sorry you have become befuddled.

First, this is FAR TOO LONG FOR A SUMMARY. I think what we really need here is a dictionary. You can comment at any point in time and on anything you like. Its that your exceptionally long winded replies are tedious at best. This doesn't need to be an EU treatise.

You know you might be right but there is ABSOLUTELY nothing saying I can't write long winded posts if I so choose though I am fairly certain you shouldn't be telling people you don't like their grammar, punctuation, and writing style.

You accuse me of being "off the rails" (which by the way is a euphemism for insane though I thank you for your tender touch) while the only point you really made is that you don't like the content of what I write, the punctuation of what I write and whatever else you are cranky about so please I will agree to leave this thread if you busy yourself with a read of that dictionary you are so fond of.

Yes, it is, because this is not a legal matter. At the very beginning of the thread it was established that no money was changing hands. Bringing up laws on EU software warranties is asinine at best. No one is filing suit here.
this is patently ridiculous. you're being ridiculous now.

I was not the one who brought it up, I live in the US would never adhere to that law or whatever it was that was linked to and was exemplifying why it was absolutely trash and irrelevant in my opinion.

I never said anyone was filing anything anywhere in this thread and was making a quasi-relevant comment about what I perceived to be a quasi-relevant comment when trying to establish that it really had no merit.

The difference between my exchange with the fellow who posted the link to EU law and our exchange is that though my opinion differs from sbj we have an understanding of the boundaries of what ok to say directed at another person and found a happy middle to engage in a semi relevant disagreement that ended amicably while at the same time you see fit to attack the quality of what I type and my choice of words and what I choose to respond to in a thread like I agreed to not type in a way that makes Rambro upset when I post at xenforo.com.

I will now leave this thread so as to allow the fellow users here to continue on as well as force you to generate a new way of instigating a fight to make it a little more obvious next time. Next time you try that though consider buying me dinner first, it's only customary especially for such a considerate gent.

 

[sbj]

To my defence .

What I wrote is highly relevant to the discussion. I quote the thread-owner:

I feel that xenforo ought to offer customers some protection.

And I tried to make a voice about customer protection and to show what kind of protection users can have. Internet is not a place without laws and regulations.
I said it one time, I say it again; obviously nobody will sue devs for say 15$ and in most cases people live in different countries anyway. And I didn't want to make a highly sensitive juridical conversation about this whole situation. Personally, I haven't really encountered a real problem with developers. But I am unhappy a bit about the whole situation of addon developments in general. I think quality from the dev community is lacking a bit overall, no offence. And one part of quality is the customer protection, what this is all about.
Anyway, sorry if I lead this thread to EU laws, but this is reality .

 

[Snog]

View attachment 141620

Sorry, I missed that. Thanks.

Quite simply, if an add-on was published as compatible with say 1.4.x and stopped working with 1.5.x, there would be no claim since the add-on still works with the published 1.4.x version of XF.

So, what I think you'll have is developers being much more specific with what versions an add-on works with ie: 1.4.2, 1.4.3, etc. to avoid any possible conflict.

Plus I think more developers might put a disclaimer about custom styles to avoid conflicts there.

If put into effect, that law could have more negative impact than positive.

 

[ManagerJosh]

There should be some xenforo-enabled recourse for customers who purchase add-ons from developers that are nonresponsive to queries, help, support, or anything. As it is, when we buy something from an add-on developer, we're "on our own," or so it seems. If developers are going to sell things under the umbrella of xenforo, I feel that xenforo ought to offer customers some protection.

Isn't this called a "contract" ?

 

[Robust]

And if a dev doesn't agree to being part of this, they are now seen as an outcast if they are not part of this "group". Seems unhealthy, at least to those that do not want to be part of it.

I also don't think a "group" has the right to virtually conglomerate and put standards in place others may not agree with. This seems to go against the open market that has been in place here since the beginning of XenForo.

To follow from what Steve said (and arguing my previous approval of this idea), this may actually be a toxic idea.

Developers will not give up an add-on, this program results in power struggles and disagreements/drama. There is no legal way to really enforce this either.

However, what I would support, is a 3rd party recognised standards thingy. Each development company has proportional votes in how this standards thing works. They set some standards for support and add-on quality. This encourages customers to buy from them, and also means that if you don't comply you can just get voted out of the group, aka ruining the reputation you built up from being in it. Being in it will gain customer trust. It's a simple and effective business tactic.

A key for this to work will mean that this is ran/chaired by someone completely objective, not a developer or someone that profits from the free market. Just a customer with business sense, for example.

Downside? Seems a bit over the top for XenForo development. Maybe if it's extended to be software (in general) to customer guarantees 'commission'. There's an idea for someone responsible enough to pursue it.

But all of this discussion should be in another thread for the sake of organisation.

 

[Robust]

By the way, about that EU regulation, what if you're buying from a non-EU company? How are those consumer rights enforced? Isn't there a jurisdiction issue there?

 

[sbj]

By the way, about that EU regulation, what if you're buying from a non-EU company? How are those consumer rights enforced? Isn't there a jurisdiction issue there?

Seller and customer in EU -> what counts is the location of customer
Other than that the location of seller counts, unless that country says otherwise in its laws, which is unlikely.


And to what Slavik suggested. I think it is a noble thing and in its core a good thing, but I also don't think such a thing could be accomplished. It would be an overkill.
The only reliable thing is the operation of XenFor and the Ressource Manager, because the RM makes it equal for anybody. I think the RM being made more customer-friendly would solve the biggest issues and make a better customer protection. Other than that I can't see a way.

The best protection comes from customers. Not from the market owner (here XF), not from the developers, but from the customers. Cause only the customers can without a doubt care for their own good without being biased. So the work/comment/opinion of customers will help others to identify good service from bad ones. Plus this will make no extra load of work towards the market owner or to the developers.
But for this kind of thing, the system (here the RM) must work flawlessly. The RM is bread and butter. That decides the level of protection in my opinion. Anyway, I am repeating myself, I said everything what I could say. Wish you all the best.