So you're thinking of buying an iPhone? Here's something to consider...

Carl said:
Another thread totally derailed by Shelley and her tedious manner.
Click to expand...

apple_hands.webp
Sorry Carl, I hold my hands up to it, if i had any.​
 
Another thread totally derailed by Shelley and her tedious manner
Click to expand...
English class begins.
The possessive adjective in relationship to that particular noun renders the descriptive adjective as redundant, as it is always implied.

[DUCKS!]
 
I think the reason Apple gets so singled out in these types of discussions is due to their hypocrisy.

Bleating on about how great you are as a corporate citizen... doesn't make it a reality.

Whilst espousing ideals of safe work places and greener products is noble, unless you are actually making some steps towards doing it.. it is just more meaningless white noise.

Far from Thinking Different .. They think exactly the same as any other mega corp... they are driven by profit just like any other corp, but ... they are spectacularily less philanthropic or humanitarian than others.

Someone mentioned that the cost of making an iPhone in the first world would be 10x that of making it exploitative sweatshop conditions in Asia, and someone else said that we can't possibly do that because consumers won't pay the extra.

To that I say... BOLLUX - We in Australia pay significantly more for Tech items than you do in the USA, UK or Europe due in small part to freight costs, and in large part because retailers can get away with it here. People WOULD pay slightly more for products made in their own country, or in properly regulated first world conditions.. if they had no other option.

The cost of producing an iphone is apparently according to that article $8 - even at the doomsday like pessimistic rate of it being 10x more.. that is only $72 difference.

Ask yourself.. would you pay that $72 extra to ensure that workers had the same conditions as you would expect in your own country?

iPhone 4 USA $679 http://www.amazon.com/Apple-iPhone-..._1_2?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1318620266&sr=1-2

iPhone 4 Australia $799 - http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone

We do anyway.. we have no choice, but I like to think that many would voluntarily do so to ensure the safety of workers.

The notion that companies can't continue to manufacture in the first world is utter nonsense.. they can, consumers will pay a premium for a premium product... this argument is a smokescreen to cover the fact that they manufacture in the cheapest possible place irrespective of who or what they exploit to maximizing profit... I can assure you that you are already paying that $72 now.. it is just going into the coffers of the corporation you are paying too instead of into fair work conditions.
 
Kim said:
Great Read!

Start making your products in the USA then under properly regulated labor market laws.
Click to expand...
If Apple did that, they would be done for; the government would do the same thing they did to Gibson Guitars: make up stuff and raid them.
 
Here is a list of Foxconn clients:
  • Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
  • Amazon.com (United States)
  • Apple Inc. (United States)
  • ASRock (Taiwan)
  • Intel (United States)
  • Cisco (United States)
  • Hewlett-Packard (United States)
  • Dell (United States)
  • Nintendo (Japan)
  • Nokia (Finland)[17]
  • Microsoft (United States)
  • MSI (Taiwan)
  • Motorola (United States)
  • Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
  • Vizio (United States)
For those of you advocating a boycott, please feel free to disconnect from the Cisco powered internet, log out of your Windows OS and turn off your Intel based computer. Let's face it, if you aren't willing to do that for the products you have, then you're worse than hypocritical. Its worse, because your intention was to discredit Apple and you simply used this issue to your advantage. In short, you exploited these poor people for your own benefit and agenda.
 
Fred Sherman said:
Here is a list of Foxconn clients:
  • Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
  • Amazon.com (United States)
  • Apple Inc. (United States)
  • ASRock (Taiwan)
  • Intel (United States)
  • Cisco (United States)
  • Hewlett-Packard (United States)
  • Dell (United States)
  • Nintendo (Japan)
  • Nokia (Finland)[17]
  • Microsoft (United States)
  • MSI (Taiwan)
  • Motorola (United States)
  • Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
  • Vizio (United States
For those of you advocating a boycott, please feel free to disconnect from the Cisco powered internet, log out of your Windows OS and turn off your Intel based computer. Let's face it, if you aren't willing to do that for the products you have, then you're worse than hypocritical. Its worse, because your intention was to discredit Apple and you simply used this issue to your advantage. In short, you exploited these poor people for your own benefit and agenda.
Click to expand...

Oh behave. Your Pro-Apple stance all the time becomes rather boring.
 
Kevin said:
So... um.... what's the deal with the hand? News story or something I missed?
Click to expand...

That was just a little fun. I made my point clear in the first post. Nobody cares about workers conditions, as proved in this thread and their hand joints suffering from the wrath of apple working conditions.
ihand_animated.gif
<< waving smiley (without the smiley? )
 
AdamD said:
I think it's awful and when reading stories like this, I make a point of not buying the companies product or service, full stop.

If everyone did the same, we wouldn't have this problem. (although in hindsight, I suspect those employees would be jobless as a result...sigh)
Click to expand...

That's a common myth spread by the companies who benefit from it. If everyone did the same then those same workers would continue to make the same products but their pay and conditions would improve to a living wage.

It's cheaper for a company to continue making their products in China/wherever at a slightly increased cost than to rebuild an entire infrastructure elsewhere, especially back in the west.
 
Kim said:
The notion that companies can't continue to manufacture in the first world is utter nonsense.. they can, consumers will pay a premium for a premium product... this argument is a smokescreen to cover the fact that they manufacture in the cheapest possible place irrespective of who or what they exploit to maximizing profit... I can assure you that you are already paying that $72 now.. it is just going into the coffers of the corporation you are paying too instead of into fair work conditions.
Click to expand...

Of course they can but it would be at a reduced profit. The issue we have is that companies have become used to making huge markups on products rather than just very large markups. Those companies dont want to give up the level of their return in order to make life better for those workers who help create their wealth. Wealth created through poor people's blood, sweat and tears.

Any of these large companies could still make their products in first world conditions and still make a very healthy profit per unit. The issue is that they want obscene profits per unit and not healthy or large profits. It's pure greed.
 
Lone Wolf said:
That's a common myth spread by the companies who benefit from it. If everyone did the same then those same workers would continue to make the same products but their pay and conditions would improve to a living wage.

It's cheaper for a company to continue making their products in China/wherever at a slightly increased cost than to rebuild an entire infrastructure elsewhere, especially back in the west.
Click to expand...
THIS is an example of the "common myth".

Companies, as in 40% of all consumer electronics, aren't "making their products in China", they are all subcontracting a single company in China that has the unique and costly infrastructure to create and assemble the necessary components.

The proof that was you're saying isn't true is that anyone with sufficient means can begin building a similar facility in any first-world nation to day and start competing for those contracts. Do you know why non-one does? I'll explain it. its Business 101.

First, lets talk about ROI - Return on Investment. For that business venture to be viable, it must turn a profit within their equipment depreciation schedule, according to their depreciation method. Thats the point at which their initial equipment investment has reduced in value to salvage value, typically 5 years.

Within that same 5-year cycle, you have your build cycle and sales cycle. We're going to be generous and assume the build can take place within 2 years. Likewise, we're going have faith in people and unrealistically believe that they will consider doing business with a company that only has 1/2 their manufacturing facility built. And since I'm in a generous mode, we'll say the sales cycle for a multi-billion dollar contract is only 8 months long. Our billing cycle in NET180 (meaning 180 days after completion), which are common billing terms.

So, what this means is within our 5-year RIO, we have 2 years and 9 months on the front end before any manufacturing begins, and 6 months on the backend to allow for billing, leaving only 1 year and 9 months for actual manufacturing within the ROI period. This means the cost of those contract within that timeframe will need to cover all of the costs incurred in that five-year period less liquidable assets.

Thus exposing the myth that:

1. It will only cost a little more.
2. Businesses can just decide to do it somewhere else and maintain their delivery cycles

Idealism is like a battle plan. Neither survive contact with reality. If you want to make meaningful change in the world, you can't simply rely on idealism. You will fail time and again, become disillusioned and stop trying. You have to work within the framework of how the world really operates.

Idealism says, tax millionaires more because they are evil. Stop building stuff in China.

Reality says, lets offer long-term tax incentives for a company to build a factory in an economically depressed area, such as Mississippi to compete with the Chinese. If they are an 8A or HUBzone, we can let them compete for government contracts, allowing them to be 15% higher in cost than their competition and still win the contract. We can provide additional tax incentives to domestic companies that do business with them.

At the same time, we can increase political pressure on China to improve worker conditions and pay. For blatant offenders, we can employee targeted trade sanctions and tariff or even cut off their access to US produced goods and supplies.
 
This has been going on for years - I podcasted about it at least 3 years ago. Foxconn makes lots of devices for various countries and various products and they have always had issues with bad working conditions and people jumping off the roof. In fact they had some many people jumping off the roof at one point they put up nets to stop people from killing themselves. Foxconn sent a letter to be signed by all employees, removing liability to the company should an employee die.

While this person seems to blame apple, there are also a lot of other companies (including Sony and Dell) that use Foxconn as it's one of the biggest plants in China. Though it is also up to the management of Foxconn to deal with some of the issues there, which they aren't because they want to keep the money rolling in.

While I think Apple should push harder to help the situation there it's far from it just being an Apple issue as Foxconn is an independent company with various clients.
 
It's easy to blame one company when the problem exists with most other brands (Dell and Nokia are made in the same factory, and other Chinese factories are much worse) and is largely dependent on the local laws and rights of workers there. It's the Chinese government who's to blame here. Western companies need to compete with each other, if Apple produces iPhones in the US or Europe, they're out of business within a year.

Here's Jobs defending the factory in 2010: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10212604

Having said that, I do believe Apple should do everything within their power to set an example for others.

PS you might be interested in this:

Out of a million people, 17 suicides isn’t much—indeed, American college students kill themselves at four times that rate.
Click to expand...
That 17 people have committed suicide at Foxconn is a tragedy. But in fact, the suicide rate at Foxconn’s Shenzhen plant remains below national averages for both rural and urban China, a bleak but unassailable fact that does much to exonerate the conditions at Foxconn and absolutely nothing to bring those 17 people back.
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/all/1 (also a good read)
 
Crazyfruitbat said:
This has been going on for years - I podcasted about it at least 3 years ago. Foxconn makes lots of devices for various countries and various products and they have always had issues with bad working conditions and people jumping off the roof. In fact they had some many people jumping off the roof at one point they put up nets to stop people from killing themselves. Foxconn sent a letter to be signed by all employees, removing liability to the company should an employee die.

While this person seems to blame apple, there are also a lot of other companies (including Sony and Dell) that use Foxconn as it's one of the biggest plants in China. Though it is also up to the management of Foxconn to deal with some of the issues there, which they aren't because they want to keep the money rolling in.

While I think Apple should push harder to help the situation there it's far from it just being an Apple issue as Foxconn is an independent company with various clients.
Click to expand...
Exactly. If this thread was about the plight of the workers, it would focus on Foxconn, but it doesn't.

Instead, its more about having a burr under their saddle about Apple. The thought process goes something like this:
  1. I hate Apple
  2. Let me dig up some dirt on them to make them look bad
  3. Hey, how about this Foxconn thing?
Then when you rightly challenge them on Intel, they clam up. Its beyond hypocritical. Its exploiting those workers for their personal gain too. Sad part is, they have no interest in helping those workers at all. Their answer is boycott Apple. That gets bak to their motivation: "I hate Apple. I want to hurt them."
Its sad, really.
 
Back
Top Bottom