Single parents...

[Shanj]

Dragonfly this is VERY sensitive to disagree with another Mother and one I respect.
But I would never never never have put my child in another place on his own.

I can't tone this down I'm afraid - abandonment and rejection is devastating to a small child. Not just unpleasant - devastating, and the effects can last years. It instils the idea "I'M BAD" which is massive compared to "I did something wrong." It's the crucial difference between rejecting the CHILD (whole person) and rejecting what s/he DID (part only).

Small children have a very rapid sense of time so being separated even for a few minutes is enormous for them. Being abandoned and rejected WITH disapproval AND frustration - they don't yet know how else to react - is overwhelming.
Yes they will learn not to express anger, and become quieter about what they feel but to me this isn't a good thing. We NEED anger to defend ourselves. Masses of people learn to suppress anger then can't stand up for themselves, get bullied, even get ill.

I have spoken frankly and honestly. We probably just disagree on this one and that's that.

What I did and recommended as a mother and a counsellor, was to stay ALONGSIDE the tantrum.
Maybe in self protection on the other side of the room!
Also turning the body away somewhat to avoid impact on the sensitive front.
I agree with the self disciplined calmness for the adult because that reassures the little demon that they are not dangerous to us or to themselves.
But I want a child to know that their anger is a) natural b) respected c) safe and manageable d) useful.
So I try to demonstrate that yes I'm noticing at frequent intervals, a smile, a comment.
But I'm not giving in.
Comments like "Is that enough being angry yet? Oh no you need more. OK" then switch to reading a book, are great. They show that the child can do this as much as they need to and you're strong enough to encircle them with safety.
There can be a quiet bit then eye contact then a forced renewal of the temper. Don't laugh! AS said earlier this is all new to them. Continue the treatment.

I have had huge success with urging and encouraging MORE tantrum!
Come on sweetheart I'm sure you can yell louder!
More come on more! Louder!
This demonstrates extremely fast that it's not scaring you and it's safe because you're in charge. It can shortcut the whole thing as there's not much point in trying to dominate with noise if you're invited to do it more by people who obviously aren't bothered!

Another technique is an 'angry cushion' to shout at and thump. Fetching it is a way of saying that anger is recognised and respected, has its place.

Re smacking yes absolutely. Before talking is mature around 4 -5. On the legs or bottom only and 1, 2, or 3 only.
Animal mothers don't discipline with anything fancy - they give a shove, a nip, or a clout. Cats are some of the best mothers I know and cats have excellent social skills.
As small c reatures our children are animals and need animal communication.
Illegal? We don't have CCTV in our homes yet thank God. Illegal is NOT the same as wrong.

Paradoxically at the same time I do support almost all smacking being illegal because too many over use it. Too often too hard.

 

[Kim]

That's OK Shanj,

You can disagree I don't agree with all of what you have said, but that is also fine, we as parents all have to find the way that is right for our children and ourselves... there is no one right way.

The time out technique is well known and well documented, but I know it will be too confronting for some people and that is fine, it is offered purely as first hand experience of what worked for me and works for others in this situation, what Yazmeen chooses to do with the opinion is of course her decision

As I said in my responses, the OP should seek professional advice, I still think she should make an appointment with a Pediatrician or other expert - someone who can actually get to know her and her daughter is going to offer far better advice than anyone of us on the internet can.

 

[Tigratrus]

We had good luck with explaining that anger is a natural part of your brain and how it works. Our son was VERY responsive to talking about the limbic system and how the "Lizard Brain" was a fundamental part of who and what we all are. Our daughter's totally different, very visual and story focused and less engineering/how it works focused, so for her it was more about just focusing on the feelings and trying to find ways to express them. They both did well having their rooms designated as places where they could go and calm down when they were too angry/upset to be with others for a bit.

Here's the critical thing: They learn by watching YOU and what YOU do. So if you model the behavior by telling them "I'm too angry to talk about this right now, I need to go have some quiet time" and then go to YOUR quiet place, then they see that everyone has to learn to deal with their emotions. It's very important that they understand that it's normal, and there is nothing wrong with them feeling angry. Adults do too.

Regarding the spanking thing, I'm against it esp once the child is capable of talking about things. What it teaches is that you have to do certain things WHEN YOU MIGHT GET CAUGHT. It teaches fear. I'm also against the idea of punitive punishment. It's FAR more effective to use "Natural Consequences". You establish rules up front, with clearly stipulated and agreed upon consequences. Try to make the consequences make sense, and be directly related to the behavior.

I.E. If the behavior is mistreating toys, then losing your dessert at dinner doesn't make much sense. Instead I would say something like: "Well, by breaking your toys you're showing us that you're not ready to HAVE toys like that in your room. So those toys will be stored away for a (day/week/?) time, then we can try again.

Hitting another is ALWAYS wrong in our rules. If one of the kids hits/bites etc, first they have to apologize, then they have to go and choose a favorite item of their own that they are going to give up for a week. The important thing is to involve THEM in the selection of the consequence. If they don't choose something that means much to them, then a parent gets to choose something else, and we make sure that that's always worse. Get THEM involved in their own consequences and they will start to see that it's their actions and choices that lead to the consequence. The most important thing is to teach them to control themselves, not because they are afraid of what the parent will do. That way leads to longer term good behavior that isn't dependent on a parent being there to inflict punishment for infractions.

 

[Shanj]

We had good luck with explaining that anger is a natural part of your brain and how it works. Our son was VERY responsive to talking about the limbic system and how the "Lizard Brain" was a fundamental part of who and what we all are. Our daughter's totally different, very visual and story focused and less engineering/how it works focused, so for her it was more about just focusing on the feelings and trying to find ways to express them. They both did well having their rooms designated as places where they could go and calm down when they were too angry/upset to be with others for a bit.

Here's the critical thing: They learn by watching YOU and what YOU do. So if you model the behavior by telling them "I'm too angry to talk about this right now, I need to go have some quiet time" and then go to YOUR quiet place, then they see that everyone has to learn to deal with their emotions. It's very important that they understand that it's normal, and there is nothing wrong with them feeling angry. Adults do too.

Tigratus I really like your approach here - as long as it's for an older child say approaching 4. Not for a tiny person with very little language and still urgently needy of contact and closeness. (the original post was about a 19 months tiddler.)

I love the point that different kids need different approaches.
I'm not so comfortable about anger being something that has to be hidden away, not shared. After all it's something that arises between people a lot to do with what we do to each other.
I could see this being in adult terms a contest in one person being infuriating so the other is forced to withdraw if they feel goaded into losing their temper - a "lose." Rather I would prefer to go on alert if temper appears because that's the signal of passion, deeper feelings, often a lot of truth. Requiring a lot of respect, not pushing someone away to go and get "calm and presentable."
That feels like someone can't be loved or respected unless they are in best behaviour/ best clothes.

On the other hand there are limits. Rage is not natural anger, it's anger gone too far into bullying and personal attack. So at this point yes retreating to calm down is appropriate.

So I guess by analogy a child can in my book, yell, hit a cushion, cry, roar etc and it's all part of human communication.
Hitting a person, breaking anything except rubbish - smashing stuff that doesn't matter is very satisfyinguntil you have to clear up the mess! anyway hitting a person or breaking anything that matters needs training.
Later on anger needs training so it expresses about what someone DOES not what they ARE e.g. I hate you! is not on but I hate it when you do X is acceptable. How are they going to learn this kind of crucial anger management if there has been years of being shut away if they get angry?

 

[chousho]

So I guess by analogy a child can in my book, yell, hit a cushion, cry, roar etc and it's all part of human communication.
Hitting a person, breaking anything except rubbish - smashing stuff that doesn't matter is very satisfyinguntil you have to clear up the mess! anyway hitting a person or breaking anything that matters needs training.
Later on anger needs training so it expresses about what someone DOES not what they ARE e.g. I hate you! is not on but I hate it when you do X is acceptable. How are they going to learn this kind of crucial anger management if there has been years of being shut away if they get angry?

Yesssssss, yessssss! Give in to your anger!

 

[Shanj]

Yesssssss, yessssss! Give in to your anger!

Just to be pedantic respecting anger isn't the same thing as giving in to it.
We go in and out of short bursts of anger (natural length up to 3 mins) so there are parts of the c ycle when we can be calm, rational etc. It's the combination that's powerful - both passion and logic working in turn.
Anything longer than 3 mins at a time means built up anger - might even be about something else.

To answer your pic here's a fiery Celtic warrior.

 

[Tigratrus]

Exactly. And yes, the above methods are really only applicable once the child has reached the age of reason.

The single biggest thing I think that new parents need to find out about is "Developmentally Appropriate Behavior". Note I did NOT say "Age Appropriate", different children mature at different rates in different areas, expecting every 4 year old to be at the same point in different aspects of their development as every other 4 year old is ludicrous. It'd be as silly as expecting every single 35 year old from the same background to have exactly the same skills and knowledge.

Both our son and daughter went through the stage we called "Fit Boy/Girl" where they threw huge tantrums, pretty much every child does I think. If we were at home we just let them have at it unless they got so worked up that we thought they were going to hurt themselves or somebody else... At that point one of us would sit down on the floor with them and hold them simply so they would be safe. If we were out in public, they got a warning, then one of us would go sit in the car with them until the other was done doing whatever we were doing there (shopping, eating dinner etc). When they got mature enough to reason with, we started the "Natural Consequences" system.

We DID do sleep training with them from a young age. They had VERY regular bed times, and once it was time for bed, it was Time for Bed. There was a fixed routine, they got a bath, then 1/2 to an hour of freeform playtime (we played whatever game they were enjoying or came up with), then we read a book, then it was off to bed. When they cried and threw fits about it, we went in every 5 minutes to hold them and reassure them for 1/2 hour. Then every 15 minutes for 1/2 hour then every 20 minuets etc etc. After just a few days of it (rough on all of us in every respect ) they adapted, and bedtime has never really been an issue again.

 

[Shanj]

ogoddess bedtime - depends on the family doesn't it -
after about a week of nonstop roaring we got the message that separating at bedtimne was a N O!
but as long as he was in the same room as one of us with our smell, sounds he was fine.

Ever since he is always v ery edefinite about how fast or how much separation he will do - usually a lot and very confidently but when not NO.
At 19 he's a homeloving young man but not clingy.