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Permissions

Kim

Well-known member
#1
Urgh, I seem to be having trouble with permissions.

I have a created a usergroup, in the usergroup permissions the Personal Conversations section has the following...

ug_permissions2.png

As you can see it is set to allow for this group, however they cannot start new Personal Conversations.
 

Brogan

XenForo moderator
Staff member
#2
Are they members of any other usergroups which have that permission set to Deny?

Also, try setting a value for the number of participants.
 

Kim

Well-known member
#3
It's not just one individual, it is the whole group, I just tested this with a test account.

I will try adding a value to the # of participants
 

Kim

Well-known member
#4
Hmmm Ok, adding that value has worked, my test account can now send PM's.

I think that might be a buglette... the value should be allowed to be empty?
 

Brogan

XenForo moderator
Staff member
#5
Well by definition, if the maximum number of recipients is Default, which in this case equates to 0, then they won't be able to send to anyone.

The Default permission inherits values from other usergroups, but if they're not members of another usergroup which has a value (e.g. 5) then there won't be a value to inherit.
 

Will

Active member
#6
Did you make that created usergroup the primary?

I'm asking because I believe I was having the same problem. When I made the "registered" usergroup primary and the created usergroup added as a secondary it finally worked.
 

Will

Active member
#7
Well by definition, if the maximum number of recipients is Default, which in this case equates to 0, then they won't be able to send to anyone.

The Default permission inherits values from other usergroups, but if they're not members of another usergroup which has a value (e.g. 5) then there won't be a value to inherit.
I see what you're saying but I think it is odd how that works. Is there not a default limit somewhere in options? Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought there was. I can't tell right now because I can't login to my xF right now.
 

Kim

Well-known member
#8
Did you make that created usergroup the primary?

I'm asking because I believe I was having the same problem. When I made the "registered" usergroup primary and the created usergroup added as a secondary it finally worked.

Yes it was the primary group for them.

Well by definition, if the maximum number of recipients is Default, which in this case equates to 0, then they won't be able to send to anyone.

The Default permission inherits values from other usergroups, but if they're not members of another usergroup which has a value (e.g. 5) then there won't be a value to inherit.

Thanks Brogan, personally I think that is a bit unintuitive, if the default value means that the system is unusable even if you set it to allow.. that seems illogical to me.. a minor setting should not overwrite the Major setting imho. Or it should at the least scream at you to set a value.
 

Will

Active member
#10
Thanks Brogan, personally I think that is a bit unintuitive, if the default value means that the system is unusable even if you set it to allow.. that seems illogical to me.. a minor setting should not overwrite the Major setting imho. Or it should at the least scream at you to set a value.
I totally agree with this. I did not even think the value there would matter if it was set to default.
 

Mike

XenForo developer
Staff member
#11
Not odd whatsoever. "Default" always means you're not setting something for it, so it effectively does nothing to add or remove permissions. Everyone starts with no permissions in the beginning, so nothing + nothing = nothing :)
 

Kim

Well-known member
#12
Hmmm not really following that logic Mike, and I know this is going to come up again and again for you, it is not intuitive to us who are not Coding Gods like yourself ;)

In this case, the default value of (what appears to be) a minor setting overwrites the explicit setting one has made.... If it is as intended, then, respectfully, could you please consider making it completely obvious that one HAS to enter a value there otherwise it will overwrite the "Allow" permission, or alternatively instead of having the default be 0 make it 2 so that normal PM function is allowed if the Admin has set it to allow for that group and like many of us hasn't realised the significance of that setting.

:)
 

Jo.

Well-known member
#13
Hmmm not really following that logic Mike, and I know this is going to come up again and again for you, it is not intuitive to us who are not Coding Gods like yourself ;)

In this case, the default value of (what appears to be) a minor setting overwrites the explicit setting one has made.... If it is as intended, then, respectfully, could you please consider making it completely obvious that one HAS to enter a value there otherwise it will overwrite the "Allow" permission, or alternatively instead of having the default be 0 make it 2 so that normal PM function is allowed if the Admin has set it to allow for that group and like many of us hasn't realised the significance of that setting.

:)
I have to say, I agree with this - it's not as intuitive as you guys seem to think imo. I don't really understand the point of having a 'default' if it doesn't do anything. Isn't that just the same has not having a setting at all? If default means nothing, no permissions set or whatever, then what's the point of it? I don't get it at all. I think it's confusing for a lot of people as far as I can tell.
 

Brogan

XenForo moderator
Staff member
#14
Default essentially means not set.
I think there was some discussion at the start as to whether to call it that or not, instead of Default.

I think Kim's argument is slightly different in that if you have allowed PMs then there should be some indication that the maximum number of recipients must also be set, otherwise they have PM functionality, they just can't add anyone.
 

Jo.

Well-known member
#15
Default essentially means not set.
I think there was some discussion at the start as to whether to call it that or not, instead of Default.
Yeah, I understand that but I struggle to understand why there needs to be a default/not set at all, I don't really understand the point of it (sorry if I'm just being really slow lol - I don't mean to be frustrating, I just don't get it). I mean, obviously the pre-set registered usergroup obviously has permissions - meaning they can post etc. but there's no indication of what those default permissions (meaning, a kind of baseline permission set for the lowest level usergroup has) consist of. It just says 'default', so going off the definition of default meaning 'not set', doesn't that mean that they should have no permissions whatsoever until we, the admin, specifically give them to the usergroup? But that's clearly not the case, so I don't get it.

I really want to make sure I completely understand it because otherwise the other admin on our team aren't going to understand it either, cos I'll have to explain it to them...
 

Brogan

XenForo moderator
Staff member
#16
so going off the definition of default meaning 'not set', doesn't that mean that they should have no permissions whatsoever until we, the admin, specifically give them to the usergroup? But that's clearly not the case, so I don't get it.
That's exactly what it means and how it works.

Try creating a new usergroup called "Test".
Set all of the permissions for it to Default.
Move a test user into that group and remove them from all other groups.
They won't even be able to view the forum as they won't have the necessary permission.
 

Jo.

Well-known member
#17
That's exactly what it means and how it works.

Try creating a new usergroup called "Test".
Set all of the permissions for it to Default.
Move a test user into that group and remove them from all other groups.
They won't even be able to view the forum as they won't have the necessary permission.
Okay, so it works if you are creating a usergroup from scratch. If everything is set to default, they can do absolutely nothing. I see. :) So in the 'registered' usergroup, everything that is set to 'default' means they don't have permission, so it's basically 'no'? But then what's the difference between that and deny? cos don't they just both mean no? I remember you said to me before that 'deny' means never, but isn't that what no means anyway? Or is it just because if you set a permission to deny then any user with that usergroup can never have that permission, even if they're given a secondary usergroup where that permission is allowed?

Am I understanding that right?

Thanks for your patience, I appreciate you trying to explain! :)
 

Brogan

XenForo moderator
Staff member
#18
Or is it just because if you set a permission to deny then any user with that usergroup can never have that permission, even if they're given a secondary usergroup where that permission is allowed?

Am I understanding that right?
Exactly!
You've got it.

:)
 

Kim

Well-known member
#20
It would be nice if you could base a Usergoup on another, and have it automatically inherit those settings, unless specifically excluded. So...

Create a new Usergroup, based on X usergroup.... then just add or delete as necessary.