Paid Mods - Xenforo Verified Designation

[FredC]

If the tomatoes are on display, and you see that they are rotten (read the discussion thread to see that there are issues) and you STILL purchase said tomatoes, then no, you don't have any protection. You got exactly what you paid for.... rotten tomatoes. It's not the vendors issue that you did not pay attention when purchasing them (unless you live in a nanny state where everything is done for you).

I respectfully disagree. It bothers me significantly that some developers charge their customers for known buggy Products. I'm not a beta tester and none of us should be required to pay to do such. Plus half the reviews on this forum come from very very few people who have any experience with code. Just because something barely works doesn't make it a quality product. That's not to say they don't eventually get weeded out but it does take a long time in many cases.

And your example of the vendor who is intentionally selling rotten tomatoes shouldn't be allowed to poison the community.

Slavics native app in development is a good example of how it should be done. I'm certain with two competing apps already available for sale he is losing money every day butI don't see him charging XF customers to beta test and debug his native app no matter how enticing it may be.

 

[Snog]

I'm not a beta tester and none of us should be required to pay to do such

Sorry, the moment you purchase ANY software you become a tester. I don't care if it's Windows, XenForo itself or an add-on. Bugs can never be found if the actual users don't report them. As an example, just recently a user reported a problem with one of my add-ons that I had never seen before. As it turns out, in an update 8 revisions earlier I inadvertently removed a hook. That bug existed for 8 months and if that user had not reported the bug, I never would have known it was there.

These are the major items I've seen in this thread so far (not from any one person in particular)...

1) I didn't read the add-on thread for problems (PROTECT ME)
2) I didn't read what the add-on does (PROTECT ME)
3) I didn't read the ratings (PROTECT ME)

Sorry, this all reminds me of the kind of world we live in today. We are in a world where there has to be a big warning tag on a hair dryer saying not to use it near water or, there has to be a warning on a cup of coffee you purchased telling you it's hot. It's all common sense, but somehow we have to be protected.

 

[Bionic Rooster]

And your example of the vendor who is intentionally selling rotten tomatoes shouldn't be allowed to poison the community.

As I see it if the consumer ignores what he observes and purchases the so called rotten tomatoes and consumes them they do so at their own peril and poison themselves. Comes a point when the consumer has to take responsibility for their own decision/choices and stop trying to put the blame on others or expect others to fix a problem they create because they don't do due diligence before purchasing/using a product.

 

[FredC]

As I see it if the consumer ignores what he observes and purchases the so called rotten tomatoes and consumes them they do so at their own peril and poison themselves. Comes a point when the consumer has to take responsibility for their own decision/choices and stop trying to put the blame on others or expect others to fix a problem they create because they don't do due diligence before purchasing/using a product.

With that mentality, Hope you never own a car with a defective part that the manufacturer knew about and intentionally chose not to recall. Particularly hope your family isnt in that same car when that part fails. And where do you live that it's okay to sell rotten food as a quality healthy edible product?

 

[Bionic Rooster]

Hope you never own a car with a defective part that manufacturer knew about and intentionally chose not to recall. Particularly hope your family isnt in that same car when that part fails.

I would never own such a car because I would research the manufacturer first. And if you bought one of these without doing your homework you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[sbj]

If the tomatoes are on display, and you see that they are rotten (read the discussion thread to see that there are issues) and you STILL purchase said tomatoes, then no, you don't have any protection. You got exactly what you paid for.... rotten tomatoes. It's not the vendors issue that you did not pay attention when purchasing them (unless you live in a nanny state where everything is done for you).

First of all, IF. If the rotten tomatoes are on display, which aren't in this matter as their is no builtin mechanism to detect if devs sell rottem tomatoes (a.k.a. that they are disappeared and dont care).
Second of all, you are wrong. Even if the tomatoes are on display, if you advertise selling fresh tomatoes, you have to deliver that. It doesn't matter that your tomatoes are on display and are rotten, and I can see them. You are selling me by agreement fresh tomatoes, not rotten. You have to deliver what is promised, not what I see or is on display.
You have to mark those tomatoes as rotten, and sell them under other agreement. The vendors can't sell whatever they want. Everything has a regulation. Just in your world maybe this is possible.

It IS your responsibility to make sure it meets YOUR NEEDS. If it doesn't, then it doesn't deliver. If you purchase an add-on with 12 months of support and you get your 12 months of support and then they halt cease support of that add-on, then they met expectations. It's NOT their responsibility to make sure the add-on meets YOUR requirements - that is your responsibility.

You are talking something different here. I never talked about a situation where a dev delivered support and disappeared after that. Of course that is totally ok, never said anything against this. But you have a thing talking about B, when I talk about A.

A word... don't try to speak for others, because frequently you will be incorrect. What you see is your interpretation of what they are saying - and language barriers can cause issues (classic case was your "meaning" support for a few months but your stating a 12 month support provided).

Yes, clearly there is a language barrier in my case and I admit that this can cause misunderstandings. Nevertheless I try to speak for a group of people cause in a community someone has to speak up to protect other people, which I try in this case. I don't insist on to be right all the time or that everything what I say is the final word, but I feel an obligation.

And technically they could postpone any support until month 12. Nothing requires them to get a "fix" out on a set timeline (other than good coding/developing/business practices).

No, they can't. Cause they have to write it down in the agreement.

Doubtful... EU does not have any jurisdiction for items sold in the U.S. - which a number of add-on authors appear to be. If the transaction occurred in the EU you might have a leg to stand on - but if they are a US developer your EU laws cannot be enforced (even though they may wish that they could be - they aren't the world government).

Well I was more thinking of the EU when I said that. Actually, when it comes outside of EU, it is actually based on the location of the seller. But if it is VAT, then it is based on the location of the customer. Nevertheless I am totally sure that the laws in US include customer protection and have guarantee clauses.

Pretty sure that there have been actions taken on developers that had "issues" with fulfilling agreements (or at least the warning of actions that would be taken if they weren't fulfilled).

I don't think so. As I said, "disappearing" for x amount of time is majorely happening all the time. Never have seen actions taken because of that.

 

[FredC]

I would never own such a car because I would research the manufacturer first. And if you bought one of these without doing your homework you have no one to blame but yourself.

Well if we all had that same crystal ball that you have it would be different and we wouldnt have to argue about this but OK I guess that makes sense only the developers should buy plug-ins and only mechanics should drive cars got it.

 

[Bionic Rooster]

Well if we all have that same crystal ball that you have it would be different and we wouldnt have to argue about this.

You have it, you choose not to use it. Research, and the most lacking of all, common sense

 

[sbj]

Sorry, this all reminds me of the kind of world we live in today. We are in a world where there has to be a big warning tag on a hair dryer saying not to use it near water or, there has to be a warning on a cup of coffee you purchased telling you it's hot. It's all common sense, but somehow we have to be protected.

Again, this is not the point.
If you sell stuff in a market, it is the duty of the market-owner (in real life the government) to take care for the rights of the customer and seller. Cause if there are no regulations, people will start exploiting the system. Basically what you say is, that it is ok that people got tricked because they didn't make enough research about the credibility of a developer. How is this ok for you? Can you explain?

As I see it if the consumer ignores what he observes and purchases the so called rotten tomatoes and consumes them they do so at their own peril and poison themselves. Comes a point when the consumer has to take responsibility for their own decision/choices and stop trying to put the blame on others or expect others to fix a problem they create because they don't do due diligence before purchasing/using a product.

Again, you are bound by agreement. It doesn't matter if I have due diligence or not. You can't put the blame on the customer here. Clearly the seller didn't follow the agreements and you blame the customer for not being smart enough.

 

[FredC]

You have it, you choose not to use it. Research, and the most lacking of all, common sense

I find it hard to believe that so many people are OK with the resource manager being so filled up with crap. as if you approve of it being there.

Poorly coded junk that breaks your database should be removed as soon as it's discovered no if's and's or buts about it. I don't care about ratings. I found hear that the ratings don't mean much as many products have five star ratings here that are garbage.

Oh and since we have to rely exclusively 100% on comments and the rating system who goes first somebody's got to be the guinea pig.

 

[Bionic Rooster]

Again, this is not the point.
If you sell stuff in a market, it is the duty of the market-owner (in real life the government) to take care for the rights of the customer and seller. Cause if there are no regulations, people will start exploiting the system. Basically what you say is, that it is ok that people got tricked because they didn't make enough research about the credibility of a developer. How is this ok for you? Can you explain?

It's ok for me because I nor the government can make regulations against people who choose not to accept responsibility for their own poor choices. If you choose not to do the research or use common sense how is that my fault or the governments or XenForo's fault?

 

[FredC]

It's ok for me because I nor the government can make regulations against people who choose not to accept responsibility for their own poor choices. If you choose not to do the research or use common sense how is that my fault or the governments or XenForo's fault?

Actually it's the governments job to protect it's citizens against unscrupulous people who just want their money grab. That's one of the reasons we pay taxes. Which brings us full circle and right back to the beginning of the thread.

 

[Snog]

Again, this is not the point.
If you sell stuff in a market, it is the duty of the market-owner (in real life the government) to take care for the rights of the customer and seller. Cause if there are no regulations, people will start exploiting the system. Basically what you say is, that it is ok that people got tricked because they didn't make enough research about the credibility of a developer. How is this ok for you? Can you explain?

I'm not saying it's OK with me.

I'm saying no matter what system is put in place, someone is going to play the system and someone is going to get taken for money. As an example, I have the ability to change my IP address to a multitude of different addresses not in the same IP range (NOT a proxy, a valid different IP), so if I was so inclined I could play the system even if I was banned by using the different IP address and user name. (NOTE: I DO NOT DO THIS. I keep the same IP ALL of the time unless there is some temporary failure with that IP address.)

 

[sbj]

It's ok for me because I nor the government can make regulations against people who choose not to accept responsibility for their own poor choices. If you choose not to do the research or use common sense how is that my fault or the governments or XenForo's fault?

Easily answered. By giving a platform to fraudulent people, you are responsible for that platform. You are not responsible for the items which are being sold, but for the platform itself.
(I mean it is overexaggerated when i say fraudulent people, cause maybe except 1-2 cases this is not the case, but the point is that there are people who don't follow their agreements, but it is not dramatic as it sounds).

 

[Snog]

Actually the governments job to protect it's citizens against unscrupulous people who just want their money grab.

And yet it happens all of the time anyway.

 

[sbj]

I'm saying no matter what system is put in place, someone is going to play the system and someone is going to get taken for money.

True, but what matters is that the system tries to stop this.
Because by your logic we could also disband all kind of laws and regulations, cause from time to time they get exploited anyway. So why bother, right?
No, this is not how a healthy system works. And right now some people think that the system around the Resource Manager can be made better to protect customers better. That's it.

 

[FredC]

And yet it happens all of the time anyway.

So that makes it OK?

 

[FredC]

Doesn't surprise me that the coders want unfettered access to do what they please around here but it does surprise me that the customers are OK with being intentionally fleeced. For what it's worth I've had great experiences with many many coders and I do my best to let them know that I am impressed and pleased with their product however I've been screwed over by just as many thieves that call themselves coders here.

 

[Snog]

I think I'm going to back out of this thread now. I have been playing devils advocate this entire time and it seems my posts might be being interpreted as something I want or am defending. That is not and was not the intention of any of my posts.

For those that don't know what a devil's advocate is:
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further. In taking this position, the individual taking on and playing the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such a process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses, if possible, in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.

 

[FredC]

I think I'm going to back out of this thread now. I have been playing devils advocate this entire time and it seems my posts might be being interpreted as something I want or am defending. That is not and was not the intention of any of my posts.

I understand and for what it's worth I own plenty of your products and think that you're on the ball and quite quick to fix anything broken or even add functionality for that matter. Anyways don't take it too personal I am playing devils advocate to I learned a long time ago to quit putting my money into the trash here. but we're not all veterans overnight. I just think it reflects negatively on XF as a product to have a buyer beware policy that lets so much crap sit in the resource manager. Like I said on page 1 of this thread many times the correct owner isn't even listed.

Anyways it's just a debate and I hope nobodys getting too hot under the collar.