Opinion: Is spam freedom of speech?

[BlackJacket]

It is this way to me...

You are the owner of a site...if some legal action is taken it will be against you, you pony up dollars and host up a server and build a site, style it and arrange a layout. You put time into it because you love it, the subject your forum covers, or you like the idea of a community getting together. You create an environment where people can come together and enjoy a nice day by the pool... (in this case innocent victim status)

or

You are a spammer, you have an agenda, be it harassing a group of people sharing something in common (targeting specific sites or software or whatever), or trying to generate clicks on something that pays you. It is selfish greedy and hateful reasons that drive spammers. You are in it for number 1 and that's it, an opportunist who will do anything you can get away with. You didn't put up a site, build on a domain, develop a strong community or spend tons of time, in fact you use automated software to attack someones personal property while you go do something else....probably something you love doing from your home, probably without someone spreading another's logo feces all up on your walls. You're whole goal involves peeing in someone else's pool for the benefit of yourself.


Freedom of speech stops the moment it is used to launch an unfounded attack in my opinion. Spamming a site is an attack no different than walking into a gas station owned by middle eastern folk and cracking racist jokes. Not only does it personally hurt the worker you are attacking it hurts the owner as it probably makes a good portion of the other customers uncomfortable and causes them to cease their business in that establishment. You are free to protest something to your hearts content up until the point where it is used as a personal attack. If I run a server, and pay for it's upkeep, it is my personal property. My personal property is not the setting to protest me or my site, start your own and do that if you want, otherwise you are telling me that you don't care if I want to show up at your house, walk in the front door and sit at your table so I can humiliate you and then maybe even record and publish it so i can monetize my wasting of your time and attacking of your personal space.

While we may not like it, cracking jokes at another individual is allowed under our First Amendment right. The same goes for spam. Spam is pure crap but that doesn't mean it isn't covered under the First Amendment. We (as in most of us) have rules setup that spam posts will not be tolerated and we can delete at our discretion. We can get away with this because it is a private community not a public forum.

Just because someone might piss you off doesn't mean they aren't allowed to say it.

Not to be mean, but I don't understand how we as forum and community owners can say who can speak and who cant. Why not just close up registrations on your forum? Or better yet, ask a series of questions that appeal to your ideals and allow only those people to join your community. Spam is spam, whether its online or snail mail. In both cases, it is allowed.

(EQ I quoted your post to respond but most of the message is not directed towards you but everyone in general)

 

[0xym0r0n]

Considering most spam is from a bot (obviously initiated by a human), then I don't count it as freedom of speech. I'm not sure if our bots are counted in freedom of speech.... LOL

I tolerate a member going around bumping old threads with nonsense words like "hamburgers and milk" but only for so long.
That's why my rule of arguments, flame wars, and debates is to close the topic when everyone starts repeating themselves. If they have something new to say, then they can start a new thread. If it's the same, then i'll remove it.

 

[EQnoble]

While we may not like it, cracking jokes at another individual is allowed under our First Amendment right. The same goes for spam. Spam is pure crap but that doesn't mean it isn't covered under the First Amendment. We (as in most of us) have rules setup that spam posts will not be tolerated and we can delete at our discretion. We can get away with this because it is a private community not a public forum.

Just because someone might piss you off doesn't mean they aren't allowed to say it.

Not to be mean, but I don't understand how we as forum and community owners can say who can speak and who cant. Why not just close up registrations on your forum? Or better yet, ask a series of questions that appeal to your ideals and allow only those people to join your community. Spam is spam, whether its online or snail mail. In both cases, it is allowed.

(EQ I quoted your post to respond but most of the message is not directed towards you but everyone in general)

You cant go to a pawn shop and try to sell another customer your personal property, no different than a person having the right to spamvertise on a forum that they signed up at for the single reason. It is theft...I can't go to your house where you are having a tag sale and stand there and redirect people to my tag sale. In reference to my gas station comment, you may think you have the right to say whatever harmful thing you want to the attendant, but that attendant has the right to tell you to leave the premises or they will call the police and if you refuse and the police show up, do you think you will really have the right to keep insulting him or not? You can talk all the crap you want and call it jokes or anything, it really is ok....but you can't force the target of verbal assults to hear them, it violates their right to avoid that conflict. If you can't understand that then you can't really understand the concept behind protecting freedom.

Speaking on the first amendment, your rights do not extend past the point where it takes away from someone else and their first amendment rights. As far as cracking jokes, if they are a targeted attack done for purposes of defamation of target or for personal gain of said attacker, that is something that is not or at least should not be protected under the first amendment.

I understand, if I go to a comedy club/show, I may be the target of a joke, but that is what comes with going to a place designated for humiliation and laughter to get together and have a good time. However, if I choose to stay on my property and you think you have the right to stand on my front lawn and ridicule me, I would assume you are out of your mind and on queue to receiving a heavy handed dose of reality.

A forum is an example of private property, that means owners may reserve the right to modify rules of engagement in their house. That includes telling spammers it is not their right to devalue my site so as to increase their own wallet or whatever satisfaction they get out of it.


If you think spam is fine...willingly submit all of your phone numbers to every automated telemarketing system and let them monopolize your time, money, peace and quiet while at home...the phone system is no different than a bot...it grabs a number from the list and dials it all from a piece a software.

 

[Kim]

The world is not the USA, nor does the "First Amendment" apply to anyone outside of the USA.

There is no such thing as "Freedom of Speech" in the way most Americans believe there to be. Many countries have no legislated or constituted right to so called Freedom of Speech at all, here in Australia there is no Freedom of Speech constitutional right, however it is an implied right under our democracy, so long as what is being said does not vilify, or otherwise discriminate or overtly offend another.

Perhaps Adam should have titled this thread "Is Spam Freedom of Speech under the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America?"

But to answer the question, in my opinion, Spam is not Freedom of Speech, it is an unwanted invasion within private property owned by someone else, as such it is more along the lines of a home invasion crime;

Spam - I don't want you here, you are being offensive and are stealing my resources and my time, you will not leave until forced to - thus you are violating my space and committing a criminal offense in most societies.

 

[JacquiiDesigns]

When someone encroaches upon your domain with spam - it should not count as a protected 'freedom of speech' -- It is a NUISANCE!

J.

 

[BlackJacket]

You cant go to a pawn shop and try to sell another customer your personal property, no different than a person having the right to spamvertise on a forum that they signed up at for the single reason. It is theft...I can't go to your house where you are having a tag sale and stand there and redirect people to my tag sale. In reference to my gas station comment, you may think you have the right to say whatever harmful thing you want to the attendant, but that attendant has the right to tell you to leave the premises or they will call the police and if you refuse and the police show up, do you think you will really have the right to keep insulting him or not? You can talk all the crap you want and call it jokes or anything, it really is ok....but you can't force the target of verbal assults to hear them, it violates their right to avoid that conflict. If you can't understand that then you can't really understand the concept behind protecting freedom.

Speaking on the first amendment, your rights do not extend past the point where it takes away from someone else and their first amendment rights. As far as cracking jokes, if they are a targeted attack done for purposes of defamation of target or for personal gain of said attacker, that is something that is not or at least should not be protected under the first amendment.

I understand, if I go to a comedy club/show, I may be the target of a joke, but that is what comes with going to a place designated for humiliation and laughter to get together and have a good time. However, if I choose to stay on my property and you think you have the right to stand on my front lawn and ridicule me, I would assume you are out of your mind and on queue to receiving a heavy handed does of reality.

A forum is an example of private property, that means owners may reserve the right to modify rules of engagement in their house. That includes telling spammers it is not their right to devalue my site so as to increase their own wallet or whatever satisfaction they get out of it.


If you think spam is fine...willingly submit all of your phone numbers to every automated telemarketing system and let them monopolize your time, money, peace and quiet while at home...the phone system is no different than a bot...it grabs a number from the list and dials it all from a piece a software.

Which is exactly what I said... Not sure if this post was meant to go against or with what I said. (well, almost exactly what I said)

 

[DRE]

Definitely not. Is breaking into your house and taking a nap in your bed freedom of mobility?

I think if you do it for a month without getting kicked out, you can't kick em out...or something like that. I can't remember, but there was this dude on my Facebook complaining about this dude living in his house and he couldn't kick her out because she was already living in there for a couple months when he was away on a business trip.

 

[Adam Howard]

The world is not the USA, nor does the "First Amendment" apply to anyone outside of the USA.

There is no such thing as "Freedom of Speech" in the way most Americans believe there to be. Many countries have no legislated or constituted right to so called Freedom of Speech at all, here in Australia there is no Freedom of Speech constitutional right, however it is an implied right under our democracy, so long as what is being said does not vilify, or otherwise discriminate or overtly offend another.

Perhaps Adam should have titled this thread "Is Spam Freedom of Speech under the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America?"

But to answer the question, in my opinion, Spam is not Freedom of Speech, it is an unwanted invasion within private property owned by someone else, as such it is more along the lines of a home invasion crime;

Spam - I don't want you here, you are being offensive and are stealing my resources and my time, you will not leave until forced to - thus you are violating my space and committing a criminal offense in most societies.

No the world is not, America. This is something I wish more people would remember (mostly my fellow Americans).

Although free speech is considered a human right and not just an American right.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

However, you are right that there is no official standing law in every country guaranteeing it or to imply on exactly what extent that freedom is allowed or denied.

 

[BGL]

The same goes for spam. Spam is pure crap but that doesn't mean it isn't covered under the First Amendment.

It's not because spam is "crap" that it has nothing to do with 1st Amendment free speech, it is because it is not protected speech under any legal definition any more than the banned fax spams were and for the same reasons.

 

[Slavik]

I'm pretty sure spam could be considered a criminal offence such as graffiti or fly posting.

 

[Lawrence]

It's advertising. Just as a company can not place a sign on my property advertising a product/service/idea without my permission, they can not do the same on my forum.

 

[MikeJaquish]

Like any other individual, spammers have the basic human right to have and express their message.
That right must not be denied by government or by other citizens. Government must defend the right to have and express their message.
They have the opportunity to create their own venue or channel for expression, which right should be unfettered by government, IMO.

BUT, they have no right to access or abuse any particular venue or channel for that expression, particularly against the will of a private owner of a venue or channel.
Spamn fools have absolutely no right of expression that gives entitlement to come to my forum, to one of my blogs, to my yard, phone, email, or to accost me in the street with their message, or to otherwise intrude into my life.
As I protect myself from trespass and denial of my fundamental human right of the pursuit of happiness, I have absolutely no concern that booting some cretin off my forum in any way denies them a liberty granted by their creation.
They can rot in Hades, for all I care, if they claim visiting the pestilence of Ugg boots upon me is a fundamental human entitlement.

 

[Wildcat Media]

I will reply to this under the topic of forum spam, as opposed to spam in general.

The way I put it for any "freedom of speech" argument on any of the forums I operate: the forum is a private enterprise, and as such, any member agrees when signing up that they adhere to the rules and standards of our community.

We apply this to members who cry foul when posts are edited or deleted (screaming "censorship" and the staff violating their "rights" to free speech). And members don't even have "rights" on a forum: being a member is a privilege, not a right. We can also apply this to spam, as spamming is unwanted communication that does not fall within acceptable content in our forums.

So a big fat resounding "NO" to the question posed here.

As for email...go ahead, ask me how many hundreds of unpaid hours I have used up over the past decade in dealing with spam, and I think you can get my general opinion of it.

 

[Edrondol]

Hey guys, I have these ugg boots for sale. Just click the link that takes you to a site that has cheap knockoffs and will probably record/steal your personal information and sell it to not only the highest bidder, but the second, third, fourth, and fifth highest bidder.

Here's something I have yet to read here and the biggest reason why these bots/people/spammers are not utilizing freedom of speech to me:

When you register at a forum it asks for certain information for identification as a guard against defamatory or illegal posts. When these bots/people/spammers register, they invariably lie or make up just enough information to be able to post. This goes directly against most site's terms of service. It's not freedom of speech, it's fraud.

 

[Carlos]

You are a spammer, you have an agenda, be it harassing a group of people sharing something in common (targeting specific sites or software or whatever), or trying to generate clicks on something that pays you. It is selfish greedy and hateful reasons that drive spammers. You are in it for number 1 and that's it, an opportunist who will do anything you can get away with. You didn't put up a site, build on a domain, develop a strong community or spend tons of time, in fact you use automated software to attack someones personal property while you go do something else....probably something you love doing from your home, probably without someone spreading another's logo feces all up on your walls. You're whole goal involves peeing in someone else's pool for the benefit of yourself.

Freedom of speech stops the moment it is used to launch an unfounded attack in my opinion. Spamming a site is an attack no different than walking into a gas station owned by middle eastern folk and cracking racist jokes. Not only does it personally hurt the worker you are attacking it hurts the owner as it probably makes a good portion of the other customers uncomfortable and causes them to cease their business in that establishment. You are free to protest something to your hearts content up until the point where it is used as a personal attack. If I run a server, and pay for it's upkeep, it is my personal property. My personal property is not the setting to protest me or my site, start your own and do that if you want, otherwise you are telling me that you don't care if I want to show up at your house, walk in the front door and sit at your table so I can humiliate you and then maybe even record and publish it so i can monetize my wasting of your time and attacking of your personal space.

Excellent! Well thought out, and well said!

 

[RickM]

Question:

Do you believe spam counts as freedom of speech?

Disclaimer: This thread has nothing to do with XenForo or The XenForo Community. It is meant to only get your own personal opinion on the question in general.

No. Never. Ever. Ever.

Spam is spam. It's unsolicited crap that nobody wants to see. Those posting spam deserver to be banned.

 

[pk698]

in a way, yes. but doesn't freedom of speech have boundaries? I mean, I may be upset over my neighbor not trimming his lawn/yard but I don't have a right to storm into his house and yell at him? I don't know where that boundary lies with freedom of speech.

 

[Dean]

It's advertising...

This.

In addition the definition of 'spam' can vary depending on who is running the site.

 

[Lawrence]

In a democratic Country, freedom of speech has boundaries. It's why you do not see car after car with bumper stickers on them promoting a product/idea placed there against the vehicles owners consent. Not only is it a destruction of property, but it also gives the impression to others that the car owner endorses the product/idea (even if he drives with it for 5 mins before he discovers it and removes it). My forum is my property, and I certainly do not want "spammers" telling the world what I endorse or do not, even for a few seconds - why? they take away my freedom of choice, and freedom of choice always trumps freedom of speech and expression.

 

[EQnoble]

freedom of choice always trumps freedom of speech and expression.

I have to argue slightly even though I agree with your idea but the wording I have to admit may confuse some who just don't get it.

Someone could argue it is their free choice to express themselves on your site by filling it with what they like which is totally convoluted I admit but I don't put it past some people.

I like to think of it as; no one person's freedom of any sort are more important than the freedom of all or any other single individual.

Basically you are free to do anything that doesn't hinder someone from also doing anything that doesn't hinder another persons freedoms.

But in application of your statement i quoted...it does work systematically...
I am free to say whatever I want on my site with content that doesn't constitute a criminal act in my country, and by applying your statement I can easily say that you have the choice to go away if you don't like my policies about limiting what and those who I allow to post up on my domain and personal property.

The solution in the case of a forum is simple...it is private property...you don't like my policies...gtfo.