Trolling or freedom of expression?

[Jon12345]

@PatM Oh, I wish it were that easy! Who is culpable in this post?

Trolling or freedom of expression?

I forgot to say. Also it makes a difference if there is an aggressor or not. So, let's say I am disrespectful. But am I because out of nowhere, or am I reacting to someone? For example if you insulted me and my family, I would insult you back. (XF staff would remove our posts of course). You...

xenforo.com

I am very curious on your response. Do you think it should be Member A or Member B?

 

[beerForo]

Do you believe in censoring others like they do in North Korea?

Yes I do. You are not a government you are a private organization. Deleting a post is censoring. Bad word filters are censoring. It is your community. Ban the trolls. Done.

If you owned a brick-and-mortar store would you let a protester in that bothered customers? Or kick him to the curb? You are not a government. You are a business.

 

[Jon12345]

Yes I do. You are not a government you are a private organization. Deleting a post is censoring. Bad word filters are censoring. It is your community. Ban the trolls. Done.

That is a straw-man argument. You know I am referring to the extent of censorship.

If you owned a brick-and-mortar store would you let a protester in that bothered customers?

Does that include a non-protesting person who wears a MAGA hat, if it offended another customer?

 

[beerForo]

I would ban troll and be done. You may not realize the negative effect is has on your community. I had a borderline troll for a long time. Toed the line. Finally banned him. He wrote back about a year later and asked if he could come back. He noted how he changed. I let him back and he was productive.

The problem with borderline trolls is they set the bar. Others see what you are letting him/her get away with.

 

[Jon12345]

I like my forums to be a place where people can have a lot of freedom. Some people come to The Watercooler just to let off steam, get stuck into debates. I recently asked why people came to my site and many people said The Watercooler.

I think no one has tried my challenge of who would you ban, Member A or Member B because they realise that the decision is highly subjective and difficult to attribute blame. They cannot choose between the two themselves. Yet one of my mods had no problem!

 

[beerForo]

I hear ya. Forums of the past were able to mitigate politics, religion, and such. But with social media, now, if you stifle them, they just run to social media.

On one site (not XF) I created a password protected forum for sensitive topics. There is a notice that is has light moderation, and if they can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Anything on the regular forum that meets this is just moved there. The regulars enjoy the fact that it is private and they don't see it in their feed. But other regulars enjoy the debating etc.

 

[Jon12345]

There was a member 10 years ago that people wanted banned. They were all adamant. I said no, against a tide of popular opinion. They say he turned into a half decent forum member. So i ask them, do you regret me not banning him?

Several of the mods have admitted they have said things they shouldn't have. Yet they absolve themselves of blame by saying "it was them that forced me!" I say take responsibility for your own actions. Don't expect one kind of justice for the troll and a different for yourself.

The mod who banned the troll for 3 weeks without consulting other mods was, as I've stated earlier in this thread, permanently banned himself from a competing forum. He said it was unfair, that he didn't deserve it. Yet he considers my policy of never giving a permanent ban to be a bad thing. Would he not have preferred my policy to that of the forum he got banned from? He gets another chance. Take your pick. I know which forums policy I would prefer.

 

[beerForo]

You have to adjust your mindset. Permanent is not always permanent. However this action can change their behavior. YOU have the power to let them back. Permanent, temporary... semantics.

 

[Jon12345]

The troll was banned permanently 10 years ago. He came back recently under a different guise. Then he was banned for 3 weeks about a month ago. The ban expired. Now banned for 3 weeks again, from Wednesday. But Wednesday evening, there was a long post seeking help that over time turned into something where the poster (new member) reported a post by a long standing member. I suspect it was our banned troll! But it was sufficiently different to disguise his behaviour. Bear in mind we are dealing with a super-troll here, where a forum member said in 20 years on my board, he has never come across anyone as effective at getting under peoples skin. And you can't get rid of him! But we are not sure if it is him or not!

Also, another factor I don't think the members have considered, is that if they left my forum because they don't like my no-ban policy, the troll would just follow them to the competing site. He targets the individuals he knows, more so than my board, I believe. You can't ban anybody, only the username.

 

[Mark87]

@PatM Oh, I wish it were that easy! Who is culpable in this post?

Trolling or freedom of expression?

I forgot to say. Also it makes a difference if there is an aggressor or not. So, let's say I am disrespectful. But am I because out of nowhere, or am I reacting to someone? For example if you insulted me and my family, I would insult you back. (XF staff would remove our posts of course). You...

xenforo.com

I am very curious on your response. Do you think it should be Member A or Member B?

I would have not banned either of those members.... I would have warned both that their aggressive behavior should cease first. Why don't you change the mods permissions so that they can't issue bans?

Admin only issue at that point. I really don't like banning people but every once in a blue moon it becomes a necessary evil. I would rewrite your rules to clarify behavior and not give mods the permission to ban. Two cents

 

[Jon12345]

The mod gave a 3 week ban to Member B. That prompted me to create some guidelines that ended up in Mod and VIP mutiny!

 

[leebo]

Look at the time you’ve spent on this issue today. Now add that to the amount of time you’ve spent bickering about it on your forum. Picture the amount of quality content you could have created during this same period of time. You are the leader of the forum and it’s up to you to run the show. It’s clear to me you’re looking to appease too many people and I suspect you’ll find yourself in this same situation again in the future.

As the head of the website it’s up to you to listen to all opinions and form a clear opinion for what’s best for the future of your site. Tempers run hot at times so forming these procedures when things are calm is a must. Once these procedures are in place it’s up to you to lay them out to staff and help them understand why they’re what they are. Answer questions and explain why. In the end however you not stepping up and making a call is costing your forum.

 

[PatM]

@PatM Oh, I wish it were that easy! Who is culpable in this post?

Trolling or freedom of expression?

I forgot to say. Also it makes a difference if there is an aggressor or not. So, let's say I am disrespectful. But am I because out of nowhere, or am I reacting to someone? For example if you insulted me and my family, I would insult you back. (XF staff would remove our posts of course). You...

xenforo.com

I am very curious on your response. Do you think it should be Member A or Member B?

If you ask me, neither post is a part of constructive discussion, they both get personal and try to degrade the other, with subtlety but still problematic. A short piece of conversation will not let us see the big picture though, so if one of the members has a history of doing that to many people, that person may face harsher response from the staff.

At the end of the day, it's your forum, your rules, your staff and you get to decide when enough is enough. It's natural that derogatory comments provoke people, you may need to draw the line at one point for the good of the community. If you are against it as a matter of principle, you can stop people from taking action and see how it goes, it's only our personal experience and humble opinion that it may not prove beneficial in the long run.

 

[Empty]

Do you believe in censoring others like they do in North Korea?

This kind of extreme reach is inappropriate given the context of our conversation. There is no comparison between trying to keep peace on a web community and a brutal dictatorship that uses censorship to commit heinous crimes against humanity.

The argument of "I shouldn't do A because it may lead to Z" is not a solid one to stand on and isn't even applicable here. It's more like saying "I shouldn't read a fantasy novel because I might accidentally open a portal to a hell dimension". It's beyond the realm of possibility. You aren't executing someone because they aggravate people. It's just a forum ban.

 

[Mendalla]

I am conflict with a number moderators and VIPs on my board. It involves the issue of permanent bans, which I do not believe in. We all have different viewpoints on what is deemed offensive. For example, if someone trashes religion when in Pakistan, that is blasphemy and carries the death sentence. So does that mean if an atheist trashes religion on my board, should they get a lifetime ban because it is highly offensive to some? The same goes to humour. What is borderline or over the line? Should you no-platform or give freedom of expression?

Xenforo has a block button and anyone can use it. If they don't like the comments of what they consider a troll, just block.

What are your views on what I have said above? Perhaps the issue is a political one.

We don't generally ban for opinions or positions, even if some of our more conservative members claim we do. We do ban for behaviour. For instance, our most recent perma-ban was a member with a history of needling and taunting members, trying to duck his previous positions when called on them, and loudly announcing he was leaving only to return in a day or two (usually as a way to do the second). However, his views as a conservative Christian, well to the right of most members, were never the problem though he'll try to claim otherwise if/when we let him back in (we allow permabans to be appealed after six months).

All that said, the most controversial it gets on the board, which is religion/spirituality focussed, is heated debates on abortion, creationism, that sort of thing. I don't think we've had any real "hate speech", at least not enough to trip the line in our code of conduct forbidding hate speech, etc. There were a couple warnings where fundamentalist Christians were broaching anti-Semitic and gay-bashing territory but they backed off once the warning was sent.