IE 9 Beta
- Thread starter Shamil
- Start date
Dragapult
Well-known member
It's good they're cutting off XP support. IE7 and IE8 were supposed to be Vista-only and higher but they continued to remove features and backport the software. XP was a good OS for its time but it's time to move on technically and stop backporting software to a decade-old OS.
Chromaniac
Well-known member
the point remains. xp is still on sale at least till next month and microsoft has to support it with updates till 2012.
not releasing IE9 would not get the guys on XP to move to Vista or 7.
it becomes the responsibility of microsoft to ensure that they have a decent browser product that can support the current generation web technologies.
if they had ditched xp after 2012, it would have been just fine.
not releasing IE9 would not get the guys on XP to move to Vista or 7.
it becomes the responsibility of microsoft to ensure that they have a decent browser product that can support the current generation web technologies.
if they had ditched xp after 2012, it would have been just fine.
What I don't get is that MS keeps releasing new versions of its crappy browser.
- they do not earn money from it, it's only costing them money
- it's bad for developers, because it wastes their time getting everything to work on it
- it's bad for end users because just about any other browser is better
Am I missing something here? The desire of MS to have control of some kind maybe?
- they do not earn money from it, it's only costing them money
- it's bad for developers, because it wastes their time getting everything to work on it
- it's bad for end users because just about any other browser is better
Am I missing something here? The desire of MS to have control of some kind maybe?
Chromaniac
Well-known member
a couple of reasons i believe...
web browser is THE platform for most future applications. operating system is losing its relevance.
web browser is THE platform for Bing which is where they want to make money.
IE9 is probably going to make a lot of developers out there happy. they are finally doing good on that part.
it's not bad for the end user as IE comes pre-installed with Windows which is the most used OS in the world.
microsoft also cannot discard millions of users out there who are using services designed to be used in IE.
web browser is THE platform for most future applications. operating system is losing its relevance.
web browser is THE platform for Bing which is where they want to make money.
IE9 is probably going to make a lot of developers out there happy. they are finally doing good on that part.
it's not bad for the end user as IE comes pre-installed with Windows which is the most used OS in the world.
microsoft also cannot discard millions of users out there who are using services designed to be used in IE.
Dragapult
Well-known member
Why does Mozilla continue to release new versions of Firefox? Why does Opera keep releasing new versions of a browser nobody uses? Why does Apple still bother with Safari? Why is Chrome at 7.x when 3.x was just as good? Why even bother advancing the Internet, when it was good enough in 1992?
Dragapult
Well-known member
Actually, no. "Support" is not at all the same thing as "continue to backport new technologies to work with a decade-old OS." Microsoft does continue to support XP. That means they maintain what it already has... IE8, SP3, etc. And they do "ensure that they have a decent browser product that can support the current generation web technologies": it's called IE8. If you don't like it, use another browser. There are many others. And actually, IE9 being exclusive to Vista and higher will in fact encourage some to move on. After all, if Microsoft backports IE9 to XP because some still use it, why not also backport it to Windows 3.1 for Workgroups, which some also still use?
Because they're doing a good job. When you're actually improving things, it gives you the stimulus to continue. IE is not improving anything, on the contrary.
Erm, yes they are, and they have been for the past years.
They have been behind on about any other browser out there for years. They might have been improving their browser the last couple of years, but they're not innovative in what they do, nor have they brought anything that others didn't already do. On top of that, because of the monopoly situation they created (forcing IE in Windows), people have been tricked into using this browser, while they should have had the choice to pick a different one. This has created a nightmare for website developers and designers, because they couldn't create anything innovative if it didn't work in IE, which unfortunately has the worst support for CSS and the biggest market share. A market share not gained by quality or innovation, but by a monopolistic and unfair business strategy.
So you see, they have not improved anything for anyone.
Dragapult
Well-known member
You cannot honestly believe this. Please explain to me how IE hasn't improved in any way between IE8 and IE9. Explain to me how improvements to CSS rendering, HTML 5 support, full SVG support, improvements to tabbed browsing and the user interface as well as hardware acceleration are not improvements, or rather downgrades, as you seem to be implying. Becuase apparently when the same things are added to any other browser, you claim they're improvements.
Dragapult
Well-known member
Actually, IE can be fully removed from Windows. On Vista and later, go into the "Add/Remove Windows Components" and you'll see it's able to be uninstalled. And you conveniently fail to mention that every major browser borrows features from one another. Firefox isn't any more innovative than either IE or Chrome. Chrome popularized tabs on top, now suddenly it's in Firefox. Firefox had a download manager, now it's in Chrome. IE9 brings hardware acceleration and now it's going to be a feature in Firefox 4 and Chrome 7. And have you forgetten that Windows users have *ALWAYS* been able to download other browsers? You're aware that Mac OS X only ships with Safari, right? Yet I have a feeling you'd never claim Apple has "tricked" people into using Safari the way you claim Microsoft has "tricked" users into using IE. Gee, I guess Ubuntu Linux "tricked"me into using Firefox because it's shipped by default.
I didn't say they did not improve their browser. You're not getting my point here. The point is that other browsers did all this long before IE. So IE did not improve anything other than their own weaknesses. Users would have had the improvements much earlier if it wasn't for the monopoly of IE.
Again you fail to see my point. People are not going to remove anything if they got used to using it and don't know better. MS should never have made IE the default browser on their OS without offering alternatives. That's a perfect example of a monopoly and abusing it. They should have offered the user a list of choices from the moment the user is trying to use the internet. It has nothing to do with the option to remove. BTW you can't completely remove IE from your system in XP (not sure about Vista or W7), hyperlinks in Live Messenger will always open in IE.
They probably do, but all are more innovative than IE (and more secure too).
Wrong of course. One example: Firefox had tabbed browsing before IE. And there are many more features IE was last in row to add. Chrome didn't even exist when Firefox grew big thanks to it's innovative approach, so how could it be as innovative as Firefox?
Firefox has tabs since 2002, Chrome didn't even exist at that time.
Well obvious, since Chrome has been released much later (end of 2008). It takes time to develop features.
Actually, Firefox was doing this simultaneously with IE. FF however was the first to have a pre-release version available.
Like I said, if you offer people only one choice in your operating system to begin with, chances are they will not know about alternatives. Most users aren't like admins here, they know little about the fact that there is something else other than IE out there.
I will explain why this argument is not holding water below the next quote.
The difference is that Apple hasn't got a monopoly going, hence they do not cause harm to competition.
Read this: http://www.itpro.co.uk/609559/microsoft-accused-of-monopoly-abuse-over-ie
Nope, same argument as above.
Defqon
Member
whatever ...
i'll be still using Chrome , especially when Chrome 7 will be with hardware acceleration support and faster than 6th version
http://blog.chromium.org/2010/09/unleashing-gpu-acceleration-on-web.html
i'll be still using Chrome , especially when Chrome 7 will be with hardware acceleration support and faster than 6th version
http://blog.chromium.org/2010/09/unleashing-gpu-acceleration-on-web.html
Dragapult
Well-known member
"Tabs on top" are not the same thing as generic tabbed browsing. It's a specific design choice which was in Chrome before any other browser.
Also Netcaptor in 1997 was the first ever tabbed browser, and Opera 5 in 2000 had tabbed browsing long before Firefox, which was officially released in 2004. (Prior to November 2004 it was known as Phoenix, Firebird and a few other names.)
Also Netcaptor in 1997 was the first ever tabbed browser, and Opera 5 in 2000 had tabbed browsing long before Firefox, which was officially released in 2004. (Prior to November 2004 it was known as Phoenix, Firebird and a few other names.)
Moses
Well-known member
That is annoying... does Ctrl+1 work ?
Chromaniac
Well-known member
just checked again. tab scrolling works fine now. no idea why it was not working last night... so well that was an incorrect information on my part. 
Tigratrus
Well-known member
Are you seriously trying to maintain that IE is an innovator in the browser arena over the last decade? Since Google brought out Chrome, I think M$ is starting to see a real threat, mainly because Google is a major player in the web apps space, and I think they have finally figured out that web based computing is going to continue to devalue PC based importance, or at least they are starting to take the potential seriously. I.E. has long been the dinosaur being dragged into a modern age and M$ has dragged their feet and tried their damnedest to kill several open standards. They have tried again and again to follow their "Adopt, Extend, Extinguish" pattern to web standards, and the result is crappy user experience, and constant pain for web developers everywhere.
You know... I used to be an MCP/MCSE type, and I was very fond of NT/Win2K and felt that M$ generally did a good job about the 3rd time around once they moved into a new product space. But that was about 15 years ago, I know better now. IE is a millstone that has been dragging the standards of web browser experience/capability down for over a decade now, and I for one am NOT likely to forget it. Nor am I likely to forget that that basic mentality of Adopt/Extend/Extinguish is almost certain to be carried over into the era of web based computing that we are moving into.
No.
Give me open standards that don't lock out innovation and stifle the ability of other organizations to compete and move the overall capability of the web forward any day.
I.E. doesn't suck because of it's technical capabilities, it sucks because of the philosophy behind it's development and that kind of problem doesn't go away with a simple version update.
::tosses 2 shiny coins in hat::
