Sadik B
Well-known member
I thought crowd funding is only a pledge. Developer gets the money only after he completes the project.
How okay are people with crowd-finding XF addons?
- Thread starter Jaxel
- Start date
I thought crowd funding is only a pledge. Developer gets the money only after he completes the project.
Alpha1
Well-known member
Nope. The developer also gets the money if they do not deliver anything. Its a matter of trust.
What you seem to mean is escrow, which only releases the money if the project or milestones are completed.
@Jaxel I do think that @HWS has a point. Why crowdfund if you already offer the most downloaded XF addon here? All you need to do is put a price on it and money will come in. Your product has 4000 downloads over the course of 2 years, so roughly 160 downloads per month. If you put a yearly price of $15 or $20 on it then it will still get a lot of downloads and generate instant income.
rainmotorsports
Well-known member
Every platform has different operating parameters. However with most when a project meets its funding goal and the time limit is met the money goes to the developer. It's not possible to fulfill physical product orders without the money.
Software is a different story in some cases. A game mid development may need the funding to take it from the proof of concept stage to final development. But most crowd funded games do not release anywhere near the moment the money is received. It takes time and money to complete and that's what the crowd funding is for. People who want to donate money to see a goal through and reap little to full benefits doing so.
There are no rules to crowdfunding. It is all down to the platform and government regulation.
ForestForTrees
Well-known member
The original question about whether crowdfunding would be taboo seems to have been answered. It sounds like it wouldn't be. I know I think that crowdfunding is perfectly legitimate and compatible with Xenforo's culture of free and paid add-ons.
The problem with crowdfunding is that you will probably get free riders. Economists generally consider free riders to lead to inefficiency because the payment received by the programmer/provider is less than the benefit that people derive from the product, an idea that can be expressed more precisely using math (briefly, social benefit > revenue = producer benefit = producer cost = social cost. When social benefit > social cost, that means that there is underprovision of the good). Of course, some providers do it because they enjoy it. Those people are awesome, but there aren't enough of them. (Yes, if you're going to hassle me for sounding like a college econ instructor, you're right. That's my job. And I think that it's hilarious that when I went to get the Wikipedia link for free riders I was presented with a javascript popup saying that "If we all gave $3, the fundraiser would be over in an hour." That's the definition of a free rider problem right there.)
Economists would call the pricing model that you are using right now second degree price discrimination. While most people get the product for free, people who have a high willingness to pay (like many people in this thread) end up paying for branding removal, giving you some cash. It's pretty clear that this is one of the best systems. While price discrimination sounds like a bad thing, there are mathematical proofs to show that it generally leads to an increase in social welfare because more people who want the good end up getting the good. Loosely speaking, price discrimination means that you get more money and we get more software, so everyone wins. Like I said, a good system.
From an economics perspective, the inefficiency might be in the idea of free upgrades. If upgrades are free, then upgrades will be under-provided because, as above, the payment received by the programmer is less than the benefit that people derive from the product ( social benefit > 0 = revenue = producer benefit = social cost, so again we have inefficiency). Given this argument, I'm always happy to pay for upgrades, but I know others don't always feel the same way and, econ aside, it's what your customer's feel that matters.
By the way, if you're wondering why I'm writing all of this, I guess I just hope that you find it interesting. I don't imagine that you'll find it terribly helpful, as I'd bet that you know most of it already, just without the terminology. I don't know if the econ adds that much, but when I apply for a job I tell them that I have a passion for teaching and maybe this means that I'm telling the truth.
Finally, if you'll indulge me a bit, what we are discussing here could be called "market design." I think that's part of what got me interested in this thread in the first place. The leading researcher in market design, Al Roth, just got the Nobel Prize for essentially founding the field of market design starting with when he analyzed the NRMP, the market that matches medical residents up with hospitals in the US. (Nobel prize link and a cutting edge article). I actually had the chance to pitch an idea of mine about market design to him a couple of years back. Within 2 minutes of my opening my mouth, he had traced my idea back to top trading cycles, an idea published 40 years ago. Basically, my idea was redundant and it only took him 2 minutes to figure it out. It was humbling.
By the way, setting aside my role as a dismal scientist, I'm not saying that crowdfunding is a nonstarter. You may get some free riders, but you may also have a lot of fun and raise some cash. It certainly seems to be working for the XenTag #hashtag upgrade (link1 link2) that @Adam Howard masterminded, but I wouldn't rule out that @xfrocks just rocks and is doing it because he seems like a really nice guy who loves coding projects. It might also a good way for people to prepay and show their appreciation for well received software. If you did make this a paid upgrade, perhaps you could include the upgrade as a perk to crowdfunders. Perks like that seem to go over well.
The problem with crowdfunding is that you will probably get free riders. Economists generally consider free riders to lead to inefficiency because the payment received by the programmer/provider is less than the benefit that people derive from the product, an idea that can be expressed more precisely using math (briefly, social benefit > revenue = producer benefit = producer cost = social cost. When social benefit > social cost, that means that there is underprovision of the good). Of course, some providers do it because they enjoy it. Those people are awesome, but there aren't enough of them. (Yes, if you're going to hassle me for sounding like a college econ instructor, you're right. That's my job. And I think that it's hilarious that when I went to get the Wikipedia link for free riders I was presented with a javascript popup saying that "If we all gave $3, the fundraiser would be over in an hour." That's the definition of a free rider problem right there.)
Economists would call the pricing model that you are using right now second degree price discrimination. While most people get the product for free, people who have a high willingness to pay (like many people in this thread) end up paying for branding removal, giving you some cash. It's pretty clear that this is one of the best systems. While price discrimination sounds like a bad thing, there are mathematical proofs to show that it generally leads to an increase in social welfare because more people who want the good end up getting the good. Loosely speaking, price discrimination means that you get more money and we get more software, so everyone wins. Like I said, a good system.
From an economics perspective, the inefficiency might be in the idea of free upgrades. If upgrades are free, then upgrades will be under-provided because, as above, the payment received by the programmer is less than the benefit that people derive from the product ( social benefit > 0 = revenue = producer benefit = social cost, so again we have inefficiency). Given this argument, I'm always happy to pay for upgrades, but I know others don't always feel the same way and, econ aside, it's what your customer's feel that matters.
By the way, if you're wondering why I'm writing all of this, I guess I just hope that you find it interesting. I don't imagine that you'll find it terribly helpful, as I'd bet that you know most of it already, just without the terminology. I don't know if the econ adds that much, but when I apply for a job I tell them that I have a passion for teaching and maybe this means that I'm telling the truth.
Finally, if you'll indulge me a bit, what we are discussing here could be called "market design." I think that's part of what got me interested in this thread in the first place. The leading researcher in market design, Al Roth, just got the Nobel Prize for essentially founding the field of market design starting with when he analyzed the NRMP, the market that matches medical residents up with hospitals in the US. (Nobel prize link and a cutting edge article). I actually had the chance to pitch an idea of mine about market design to him a couple of years back. Within 2 minutes of my opening my mouth, he had traced my idea back to top trading cycles, an idea published 40 years ago. Basically, my idea was redundant and it only took him 2 minutes to figure it out. It was humbling.
By the way, setting aside my role as a dismal scientist, I'm not saying that crowdfunding is a nonstarter. You may get some free riders, but you may also have a lot of fun and raise some cash. It certainly seems to be working for the XenTag #hashtag upgrade (link1 link2) that @Adam Howard masterminded, but I wouldn't rule out that @xfrocks just rocks and is doing it because he seems like a really nice guy who loves coding projects. It might also a good way for people to prepay and show their appreciation for well received software. If you did make this a paid upgrade, perhaps you could include the upgrade as a perk to crowdfunders. Perks like that seem to go over well.
Alpha1
Well-known member
It also has worked well (at least so far) for XenReviews, which stems from this thread. Its worthwhile reading the xenreviews thread to consider the bumps in the road though. It did not work out well at all for Robbo's crowdfunded gallery.
In general I think crowdfunding can be very successful, but its a volatile and delicate process as everyone has financial stakes in it.
Daniel Hood
Well-known member
There is some difficulty getting this community to do crowdfunding. Everyone is hesitant, as they should be, after the situation with Robbo and his gallery. Currently @Jeff Berry and I have a project (XenReviews) going which was/is crowd funded. It takes a bunch of faith by the community to invest a bunch of money into something, especially when they all have different desired features and such. The most important thing, which you can probably gather already from the responses, is getting a clear feature list ready. For any chance at success, you must be clear with what they'll be receiving and what you want in return.
wickedstangs
Well-known member
Anything over 25 British Pound Sterling is just crazy... 
Adam Howard
Well-known member
I like to crowd fund for the greater good of everyone. As an example and already mentioned, XenTag's next update will be released freely to everyone. So while not everyone who benefits paid into it, I believe it was a good way to get things moving along. The advantage being that those of us who did pay into it, had that early release for several months before anyone else.
But it really does depend on who the developer is. I'm very picky on who I'll hire, just as much as I'm picky on how much I am willing to pay for things. Maybe even more so after some events unfolded in the past.
I look at their history too. Not just as a paid developer, you need to have a good solid base on free development too ... This includes your code, your level of support, updates, and general friendliness & communication.
But it really does depend on who the developer is. I'm very picky on who I'll hire, just as much as I'm picky on how much I am willing to pay for things. Maybe even more so after some events unfolded in the past.
I look at their history too. Not just as a paid developer, you need to have a good solid base on free development too ... This includes your code, your level of support, updates, and general friendliness & communication.
Last edited:
Jaxel
Well-known member
$75 seems overpriced... I was thinking $40; with discount on the crowd-fund... with a goal $5K.
Anyways, what I was looking to do is the obvious full rewrite of XenPorta. The primary purpose of the rewrite would be to make it a fully modular and replicating widget system. Most of what XenPorta has right now is "tacked-on", especially the widget system. XenPorta was originally supposed to just be a recent news splash page, but I kept adding things on to it. A rewrite would make all the features it currently has built into the base, so things could run more efficiently, and be easier to replicate single blocks into multiple areas, with individual and global settings.
Also, I make it a point not to give support for my free addons.
I give support for my paying addons, and most people seem to be fine with that.
Anyways, what I was looking to do is the obvious full rewrite of XenPorta. The primary purpose of the rewrite would be to make it a fully modular and replicating widget system. Most of what XenPorta has right now is "tacked-on", especially the widget system. XenPorta was originally supposed to just be a recent news splash page, but I kept adding things on to it. A rewrite would make all the features it currently has built into the base, so things could run more efficiently, and be easier to replicate single blocks into multiple areas, with individual and global settings.
Also, I make it a point not to give support for my free addons.
I give support for my paying addons, and most people seem to be fine with that.
Sheldon
Well-known member
I'd be willing to add funds to this if it was certain that the coding of "outside" widgets was as easy to do for other developers as it is with [bd] Widget Framework. Many devs have no issues creating blocks for it, but it seems as though the consumer has to go through hoops to get the identical block made for XenPorta.
Jaxel
Well-known member
That would be one of the plans.
craigiri
Well-known member
I'd probably jump in not because I need Xenporta, but just as a way of paying back (in addition to my donations and purchase of the paid wiki) for those Utilities....which definitely helped me and a lot of others.....
Yeah, pricing of $40 is about right at the top end for something like this unless it really has a lot of additional features. So the crowd funding price may have to be $30 or something like that......
Yeah, pricing of $40 is about right at the top end for something like this unless it really has a lot of additional features. So the crowd funding price may have to be $30 or something like that......
Itworx4me
Well-known member
I thought so too at first. But almost 4ooo people have downloaded XenPorta. $50.00 x 100 people isn't that much of a stretch...
Brent W
Well-known member
I thought so too at first. But almost 4ooo people have downloaded XenPorta. $50.00 x 100 people isn't that much of a stretch...
It was also one of the first add-ons released when xenForo was brand new. Back before the Resource manager. Its a great add-on but we are going to need more than a loose "rewrite" before 5k dollars happens. Put some effort into this. Tell us what we will get and provide a decent end goal and we can talk. The xenForo community has shown it will support developers with a clear end goal. Jaxel needs to step up here and put in the effort to clearly show us what we are going to get and not just expect things to happen for him.
Sheldon
Well-known member
...oh, and to add to my "musts" before personal funding... Would it be possible to please relocate the copyright, or add the option to have it display somewhere else? I'm all fine and dandy with you having one, but hate it in its current location. That is the only reason I refuse to use it as is now.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
motowebmaster
Well-known member
I wouldn't minding contributing, but consider changing to a annual-renewal fee structure. That would keep us out of your business and establish expectations for both sides.
