Current state of XF and the participation of the XF Team

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webbouk

Well-known member
Look. This is a proper communication style. It took several entire thread discussions, but here we are. Proper communication.

Look @Brogan, instead of calling a customer publicly a stalker, this is the correct way of dealing with a situation.

With these kind of messages we know where the company stands. Both the license holders and Add-on developers have now information they’ve been waiting for, through a clear, well-written post.

Well done.
Well Done Thank You GIF by Spotify

What a condescending post :rolleyes:
 

webbouk

Well-known member
As I always say, unless you are a shareholder you don't really have a say in how a company is run. If you're not happy about how it is being run, simples, buy it .... https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/07294282
However some people will just whinge and whine seeking attention and even when they get it they'll still not be happy but then try to pick fault in the attention they have received.

Ironically I started the 'XF2.3?' thread (https://xenforo.com/community/threads/xf-2-3.185937/) as a joke shortly after XF2.2 was released.
Re the devs not posting, again ironically if they were then they're not developing - sometimes they can't do right for doing wrong, in some eyes.

I seldom hear from my hosts, unless it's an invoice, but I don't harass them into writing to me, and let's not kid ourselves as this is what most of these threads read as, and tbh I don't need to hear from them, some of the comments are a bit like 'if you don't write to me I won't pay my bills' :)

Anyway, I've most likely rattled a few cages with the above, but let's put some perspective on this - if you are a potential new customer to XF and read some of these posts would you still buy into it?
I guess the answer to many would be 'No' (sorry no Amaury data to back that statement up), so in writing these posts publicly there is the potential to drive away new 'blood' and in doing so cause the very problems and issues that some are claiming might exist (which as has been posted by @Kier , do not )

I bid you goodnight all, I've got a busy few days ahead drafting my "Just thought I'd be the first to ask .... when can we expect XF 2.4 ?" thread in readiness ;)

NB: Amaury Nolasco as Rodrigo Suarez, 'The Stalker (2016) TV series .... ;)
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Nicolas FR

Well-known member
As I always say, unless you are a shareholder you don't really have a say in how a company is run. If you're not happy about how it is being run, simples, buy it
SBJ complained about the communication not the management of the company.

And no it is not necessary to be a shareholder of a company to complain about it, being a customer is enough. If every time you order a pizza without peppers it comes with peppers what is your reaction? Are you complaining or are you buying the pizzeria?? Your reasoning makes no sense.

And besides, companies often learn a lot from their customers' complaints, and XenForo is probably no exception to this rule. Of course this discussion and a few others aren't going to revolutionize the way XF works but still it has forced Kier to come out of his way and it will certainly influence, at least a little bit, some things in the future.

I don't know the XF staff well enough to judge their skills other than development, but they know that customers are their most precious asset and inevitably they listen to them. The proof.

And no, this type of discussion will not scare away potential customers because there has been a response and it largely convinces the sceptics. This discussion did far more good than harm.
 

FTL

Well-known member
I commonly see complaints that XenForo doesn't yet have feature x that person y desperately needs for their site and bemoaning the lack of a roadmap to see when and if that feature might become part of the core system. To this, I can only say that XenForo has a feature set that more than delivers the requirements of most communities, but it was always built as a platform upon which third party developers can build new application code that is in no way disadvantaged against core, first party systems. We are meticulous in maintaining backward compatibility wherever it is feasible to do so, even when it means that core development is held up as a result of having to maintain legacy systems. If your site requires a particular feature that is not currently part of the XenForo core product, post in the Resources and Add-ons forum to see if a third party developer is interested in building it using the XenForo add-on framework and best practices - that is really the essence of what XenForo is about.
Bit of a grey area this one, I think.

I get that you guys have enough on your plate and are not some large company with hundreds of programmers and masses of resources, however, I think where a feature request is relatively easy to develop and clearly makes an admin or user's life a lot easier, such as bulk processing something, or viewing all soft-deleted posts in one list, for example, should be considered. Yes, add-ons can cover these needs, but it's always better for the customer to have a feature baked into the core product, if possible. Perhaps not so much for add-on developers.

Worth a thought, I think. 🙂
 
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Mr Lucky

Well-known member
So it is not expected to get any help in the customers forum node anymore from the XF team, right?
I never did expect that. If it happened it was a bonus because you knew you could rely on that answer as opposed to support from “a bloke on the internet” which, until you get to know everyone, can still be a bit hit and miss but usually hit.

My hat is off to the development team and do not wish to pressure them into either a roadmap or to rush a release but to put it out there when it’s ready .
 

Ingenious

Well-known member
I probably missed the bit about Mike stepping down if it had been posted before Kier's announcement above (I'm not a regular here) - just wanted to wish him well.

As a long term customer still on 1.5, the slower the development the better, because updating is going to be painful :cool:
 

sbj

Well-known member
I never did expect that.
I am not sure if I am seeing the world through rose colored glasses, but I really believed that we had a community here on XF. Everyone helped everyone. Veterans helped out newbies and devs helped out with more technical and difficult stuff. In my 1.X years I witnessed it daily, weekly, monthly. Chris and Mike were there when you needed them. I am always here daily for years and I only got 3k posts in total. Mike does have 27k and Chris 33k. Those numbers are crazy. The impact they did have was immense.

Then Mike disappeared completely after 2.0 and Chris carried it alone for a while. But now the last 2 years that has also been sporadic. And seeing Kier's reply, we shouldn't expect much involvement from devs anymore at all since they are busy developing as they say.

But then again, if we can't expect them to show up at least sometimes, how will this "community" survive or thrive? I don't know, this all seems wrong to me. It is like working for and owning Mercedes but driving BMW cars. If you don't believe in your own thing and invest time in it, why should your customers? This really gives me the wrong vibe to be honest. But perhaps I live in a dream world and the word "community" is just a buzz word created for profit and gain.

I was really worried about the participation of the team and it looks like I was right. I think one of the key selling points of XF is/was the support and community. IMO the activity decreased a lot in the last couple of years. Many threads don't get any answers anymore but I didn't say anything because every "up" also has a "down" and that there will be a next "up". We just have to wait a bit until covid/cloud stuff is gone. Now I think that won't come anymore. I am very sad about it.

And reading between the lines, there is no intention of changing this course. I hope all works out in the end. To me this is another testimony to the good old "are forums dead" question. But this is not the right place to discuss it. Maybe 2.3 will change the game, and I'll eat my words hopefully. Fingers crossed.
 
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Kier

XenForo developer
Staff member
And no it is not necessary to be a shareholder of a company to complain about it, being a customer is enough. If every time you order a pizza without peppers it comes with peppers what is your reaction? Are you complaining or are you buying the pizzeria?? Your reasoning makes no sense.
I’m not sure this argument holds water. If you order a pizza without peppers and it arrives with said capsicums, you’d be right to voice your disappointment.

XenForo however is not sold with any options for customisation on delivery. You can’t order XenForo without peppers or with extra pepperoni or anything else, so you can’t be disappointed by the product not meeting your expectations, which can be set precisely by reviewing the demo. Even the License Agreement has licensees acknowledge that the software is not built for ‘your’ specific requirements.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s okay to look forward to future development and features, and believe me we are hard at work building systems and enhancements that we hope will benefit a majority of our customers. However, if customers are unhappy with the pace of development, our license model does not penalise customers who want to withhold their one year extension purchase until a major update is available. Of course we’d prefer that people renew annually, it certainly helps us out, but if you don’t, that’s your prerogative.
 

PaulB

Well-known member
I've significantly ramped up the number of bugs I've reported to XenForo over the past two years, to the point that I've often worried that my bug reports are excessive, pedantic, or otherwise unhelpful, particularly when reporting issues via direct message rather than public threads. Nevertheless, the responses I've gotten from the XenForo team have generally been timely and thorough. I've reported theoretical security concerns that are only relevant in the most contrived situations, but they've been patched regardless.

In my limited observation, the XenForo dev team has grown a great deal more mature over the years. It makes sense that they would be spending less time posting on the forums as the efficiency of their workflow improves.

I'm failing to see how less frequent public posting would be an indicator of slowing development or efficiency. Try reporting a bug and watch how quickly it gets patched. Or try using the latest PHP version, something even WordPress still doesn't support.
 

Nicolas FR

Well-known member
XenForo however is not sold with any options for customisation on delivery.
No I didn't imagine pizza as XF and peppers as custom features. That was not the point of this culinary metaphor. It was simply to demonstrate the ridiculous side of the reflection which consists in saying if you do not like the service of a company buy it rather than to complain.
 

webbouk

Well-known member
If every time you order a pizza without peppers it comes with peppers what is your reaction? Are you complaining or are you buying the pizzeria?? Your reasoning makes no sense.

TBH if I ordered a pizza with peppers and requested 'no peppers' but it still came with peppers I'd either pick the peppers off or go elsewhere next time. Same with any product or purchase, if I'm not happy with the supplier I have the freedom to go elsewhere.
A recent scenario, coincidentally relating to pizzas; my local pizzeria makes an astounding calzone kiev pizza, my favourite type apart from house specials. The amount of garlic in the pizza increased when they employed a new chef to the point it was no longer to my taste. I did mention it to the owners and they said next time I ordered to mention 'less garlic' - I did and my request seemed to be ignored, I now buy from elsewhere.

The difference however where XF is concerned, it is unique, XF offers a product that is unrivalled, you cannot go elsewhere and buy the same, hence my comment if you are not happy about how it is being run, simples, buy it, influence the company decisions from within, take control.

:)
 

Tracy Perry

Well-known member
I'm failing to see how less frequent public posting would be an indicator of slowing development or efficiency. Try reporting a bug and watch how quickly it gets patched. Or try using the latest PHP version, something even WordPress still doesn't support.
It's the "Kardashian Disease". Some people think they are entitled to know every little thing that is going on in the background.

Granted, regular updates on where the development sits would be nice... but newsflash for folks that buy a license... you buy it AS IT IS at that time and your 12 months is really only for support and fixes to the current code level. I didn't see anywhere that told you that you were guaranteed "new features" during that 12 months... bug fixes yes, new features no. The fact that you get "new versions" is simply gravy.
But again, we get back to that point of the expectation of being "owed" something more than what they contracted for. I know many software packages (as well as add-ons) that if there is a major revision done, you simply have to purchase an updated license for the new stuff... XF GIVES you the new goodies during that 12 months free.
 

Kier

XenForo developer
Staff member
...to demonstrate the ridiculous side of the reflection which consists in saying if you do not like the service of a company buy it rather than to complain.
Let's also not forget that it's slightly obtuse to suggest buying a company that is not publicly traded and is not for sale.
 
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RobParker

Well-known member
Let's also not forget that it's slightly obtuse to suggest buying a company that is not publicly traded and is not for sale.

All I want to know is what new feature has been bumped because you're being made to waste time replying on here :p
 

wedgar

Well-known member
Let's also not forget that it's slightly obtuse to suggest buying a company that is not publicly traded and is not for sale.
And even if the company was for sale and sold to new owners, would the new owners be able to retain staff or have the expertise/skills necessary to keep the company moving forward?
 
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