Current state of XF and the participation of the XF Team

[PaulB]

My prime example is always Xon. If they were half in it as him, this would be a different world.

Xon is indeed an awesome developer, and this community is lucky to have him contributing so many add-ons. That being said, I also feel much the same way about the core XenForo developers.

Nobody gets ever a feedback, nobody ever receives an update, nobody ever knows if their suggestion was seen or talked about or considered or worked on.

Yeah, that can be a little frustrating. The XenForo team doesn't give any more value to my suggestions than to yours; I still have open suggestions. Usually I just get around that by implementing the suggestions myself--the ability to do that is what makes XenForo so powerful.

And when finally an update is released, for half of the stuff I asked myself "who wanted this or why did this got implemented and not that"?

In some cases, the answer is: developers like Xon. Sometimes us developers need specific changes or features in order to streamline add-on development and bring you the additional features you want.

It's easy to dismiss the role that the core XenForo development team plays in facilitating the development of quality third-party add-ons.

 

[sbj]

Xon is indeed an awesome developer, and this community is lucky to have him contributing so many add-ons. That being said, I also feel much the same way about the core XenForo developers.

I also feel the same way for the core devs. But the difference being Xon is delivering.

Usually I just get around that by implementing the suggestions myself

Well, we, the other 99% are not lucky enough to do it ourselves and rely on others. Also as a side note, there are not many high-quality devs around here, so glad you are around (although we have no access to your private addons).

It's easy to dismiss the role that the core XenForo development team plays in facilitating the development of quality third-party add-ons.

Well, you are right and I agree. We can't praise it enough how well XF's system is. I am not dismissing it.

I am actually criticizing it. The system is so great that it became a lazy way of pushing everything towards 3rd party developers. But the 3rd party pool is not that big that this can work well and we need tons of paid addons and custom addons to get stuff done.

 

[Goodfella]

I think this thread is just going around in circles fueled by a minority of members who perhaps wouldn't be satisfied regardless.

I personally dont think they/we are the minority.
I think the minority of members are the ones who are okay with a 2+ year feature release cycle with zero communication about what's going on. And later, when this "minority" starts questioning, we find out that a key developer is/has left.

I mean, there is a reason the majority of XenForo customers upgrade to the newest version soon after it's released ( I believe DP had some metrics in this regard).

If what you're saying was accurate (that only the minority is out here looking for updates and the majority is satisfied with the current product), then why are most customers so quick to upgrade to a new version if they are satisfied with the current product?

I'd also love to see some more communication (especially in the suggestions area) from the XenForo team in general.

@Brogan has been very helpful and kind to me over the past ten years or so, but I do believe that some of his replies are, at times, unacceptable, especially towards paying customers. After all, he is the current "public" face for XenForo, and some snarky replies or jabs don't look good. I know it's a tough job dealing with all kinds of people and language barriers, but what makes a company rep excellent is managing all that in a cool and collective way.

And what makes a company's leadership exceptional is its ability to acknowledge and learn from its mistakes.

 

[Bionic Rooster]

All of the XF staff and devs have done an excellent job over the years both in developement and customer relations and if they replied to some people in a snarky manner, they probably deserved it. This is of course the exception and not the norm.

 

[digitalpoint]

I mean, there is a reason the majority of XenForo customers upgrade to the newest version soon after it's released ( I believe DP had some metrics in this regard).

The metric you are talking about:

https://iolabs.io/stats/xenforo/

That being said, I don't think people have a tendency to upgrade because developers are publicly chit-chatting. It's more going to be if new versions are worthwhile to upgrade to. And for the most part XenForo has been worthwhile upgrades.

Here's an example... vBulletin has developers talking more in their forum. And after nearly 10 years, they haven't even reached 13% of their customers upgrading to 5.x:

https://iolabs.io/stats/vbulletin/

...meanwhile after 5 years, 80% of XenForo customers are on XF 2.x.

It's definitely not related to developers willingness to partake in public discussions. At least I don't see it.

 

[beerForo]

One of the problems is there is no PR rep for XF. Hopefully they can create this position and it will solve a lot. Developers don't need to be social. They need to work on the product. Support reps offer support. Moderators moderate. But when there is no public voice we look to these people for communication, and as can be seen, they are called out for not communicating. Progress posts/blogs would be great. Just some communication and assurance before it gets out of hand and the developers need to step in to put out fires. And then, those updates are just replies buried in threads created by frustrated members. Hard to find, and not the best look for the company.

 

[Paul B]

Since this is the moment when tongues are loosened I would like to point out that @Brogan sent me nudes in DM !
#MeToo

For the record, I did not.

I'm going to restrict my activity to the ticket system from now on.

 

[beerForo]

I'm going to restrict my activity to the ticket system from now on.

 

[beerForo]

Y'all don't piss off Brogan! He's literally a team of support and customization help rolled into one. He's ALL of these guys:

 

[Brad P]

For the record, I did not.

I'm going to restrict my activity to the ticket system from now on.

 

[Starbucks]

Now they can move on looking for a real PR Staff that has a communications background.

 

[Old Nick]

Ok. Sorry for the bad joke.
I remove it and i’m going to run 10km.

 

[sbj]

I don't think making @Brogan the scapegoat in this thread is the right direction to go. This is not what I want or intended.

Also, Brogan has helped me out many many times over all these years and I like him a lot. What he said was said to me and if anyone else said it, I would respond differently but he can say it to me, no problem. I had a problem with someone else saying it though.

Anyway, putting the spotlight on Brogan is unfair here.

If you look at the table, Brogan is and was the only one over the years communicating with us, helping us out. The last person in this topic to be blamed for anything should be him. Don't make him the scapegoat. Yes, he said something to me and he could have phrased it better, nevertheless I am okay with it and don't turn this discussion into a witch hunting, please.

Thanks.

 

[beerForo]

He goes above and beyond and is not paid for the "beyond." I've saved $$$ from his customization help and solved issues I may have had to pay a third party for. He is not the public face of XF, that position simply does not exist. So move on from that nonsense.

 

[webbouk]

Look, I already ignored your senile jabs so far but this is too much. Don't accuse me of a such thing.

A minority has also rights, wishes, thoughts, expectations, etc. Being the minority doesn't mean one is wrong.

Also, a lot of people liked my 1st post. Exclude XF team's first posts and try to find other threads with that amount of likes and you will see that this minority is not that minor. It is a considerable amount of people considering the activity we have here. Perhaps you are in the minority and you don't know it?

First and foremost I consider myself far from senile so stop being impetuous and allow the XF team time to run their business as they see fit, even if it doesn't agree with your perception of how they should be running their business, emphasis on 'their'.

Secondly, you need to make your mind up - are you a minority or a majority? You blow with the wind, you've got an agenda to prove a point and when it doesn't look like it's going your way you add to it, ducking and diving to keep your opinions alive.

A lot of people may have 'liked' your post - is that what this is all about, playing to the crowd, albeit it a minority crowd?
For the record, I often 'like' posts not necessarily because I agree with them but often because I think the post merits recognition for the content, suggestion, etc. Credit is given where credit is due. You may have noted that I didn't 'like' your post(s), in fact I was more astounded at the level you went to gather and post your data to launch an attack on the XF staff. Kind of worrying don't you think?
Perhaps if you dedicated the same effort into your forums they might be a greater success, however as a minority of people nowadays do, some think it is a right that they have to hold their hand out and let others do the work for them.
Success and failure run hand in hand - only you have the key to which way it will turn out.

Anyway, enough of my 'senile' ramblings, I've a successful business and a very active community, two separate entities, and as far as I'm concerned I have no issues with XenForo, their management or their policies. Perhaps being in the majority, or is it the minority, I'm getting confused now, I'm content with what's on offer, patient enough to wait rather than demand updates, and confident that the forum software is in good hands.

 

[Aivaras]

We have a community forum for this product and we complain about not having a communication channel.

The product is the communication. For a musician, it's a piece of music. For a painter, it's a painting. For a developer it's a piece of software. That's how they express and communicate themselves.

 

[sbj]

The product is the communication. For a musician, it's a piece of music. For a painter, it's a painting. For a developer it's a piece of software. That's how they express and communicate themselves.

And how do we communicate back? By making fire? Should we hack into the system and leave comments in the code?

I get what you mean and from the artist point of view that may be their way of expressing things. But from the customer point of view it would be nice to communicate through normal ways .

 

[webbouk]

If you look at the table, Brogan is and was the only one over the years communicating with us, helping us out.

I think your table might be flawed....

 

[Faust]

 

[Aivaras]

And how do we communicate back?

By purchasing and using what they created. You reciprocate when you do this. They get it when you do this. Communication does not have to be verbal. And for verbal communication, you do have all the means, if you pay for annual support. Remember, XF is a stock product to an informed customer. "Roadmaps" is advance communication to investors, not customers, and as such is out of place in this discussion.