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Contingency plans

Discussion in 'XenForo Pre-Sales Questions' started by therother, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. therother

    therother Member

    I really hate to have to ask this, but what are the contingency plans in case the evil empire win or (more likely) try to litagate you to death with more and more frivolous suits? I've just taken over co-admining a largeish vB4 forum and would like to move to XenForo but my fellow admins are cautious about the law suit.
  2. Shamil

    Shamil Well-Known Member

    There's nothing that can be done, but I assure you, it won't be easy for IB to defeat XenForo.
  3. Ingenious

    Ingenious Well-Known Member

    This is a valid question which I don't think will ever be satisfactorily answered here (it has been asked before).

    It was a worry for me too (I'm running vB3 at the moment). Then I read that IPB can import from XenForo now and it can't be long before vB can too. So there is your plan B, if things go tits-up here you can always migrate back to something else. On that basis you can't lose really.

    I would also recommend your fellow admins spend some time in here seeing how much better XenForo is to use, and read the positive comments from forums which ran vB and jumped over. There comes a point when it must be worth the risk :)
  4. Reeve of Shinra

    Reeve of Shinra Well-Known Member

    I'd continue using xenforo until IPB completed 3.2
  5. EQnoble

    EQnoble Well-Known Member

    Well in the worst case scenario you would have to go back to using your vb4 license (until you find a better choice than that)...I would not worry myself however as I don't believe anyone from this company would do anything they are being accused of and in time the truth wills out.

    The burden is on IB to prove any wrong doing...otherwise anyone could make any unsubstantiated claim without recourse and this is the rub...I'm pretty sure the people at IB have their panties in a bundle over the fact that two people outcoded their operation by delivering a solid product rather than trying to market bread that doesn't rise. This leads me to believe it is a business tactic on IB's part rather than a lawsuit for the purpose of retribution for any losses and in my opinion is a complete perversion of legal logic.

    I have faith that the people in charge of judgement of this will deliver the verdict based on what they swore to uphold and nothing else. It is because of this that I have no reservations at putting my money toward this software and the people who deserve it.

    I'll put it this way... if XF were to lose the case...my concern would be for the rights of an average person to earn a wage or a living doing what their skill package permits. This affects me in the way that if the team can't make a living doing what they know how to do... when am I going to be told that I cannot earn that which provides sustenance to my life. Scary precedent to see big business throw around assets to try and ruin a person, persons or business to secure they're own coffers.

    No one can give you the answers I think your group want's besides the judgmental bodies charged with the task. Go with your gut (does this place here feel anything like vb?) and make your move. This was just a rambling from me to let you know where this person here stands and my whole opinion is based on principles, honor and justice. My opinion and position would be the same even if I wasn't both a XenForo & vB customer. Notably, I also had an affinity for vB ..my first experience with a forum was under their software and I subsequently delved deeper into the web because of forums in general and the rich content they offer. Actions in vB's ranks (which speak louder than words) lost my heart well before XF released. The lawsuit was just the last straw.

    I hope reading around these forums will give you some insight as to the kind of help you can expect to see from this community which I think is second to none and I can swear on my closest loved ones that I have NEVER had a question responded to as intelligently and with such gusto as this site right here. I bought the software in beta and even then when there was no official support you probably wouldn't have noticed that much. I could go on and on as to the reasons as why you should do this and that and all the blahseblah but really you should just jump in and spend some time...the water's warm here.

    Welcome to the community.
    I am a noob - you can call me Ant
    Dan, Shelley, Ashley and 2 others like this.
  6. kyrgyz

    kyrgyz Well-Known Member

    If IB prevails I'll exit forums altogether. I am still around because of XenForo. IB will NEVER get another dime from me no matter how good they might become.
  7. James

    James Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure about this, but I figure I'd ask:
    Isn't it possible (if the case is won by XF) for the courts to actually stop the claims from being re-filed by IB? This would stop the "death by litigation" that you mention, as IB would not be allowed to file any more suits against XF regarding the same matter.
  8. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Once they have won, they cannot be sued on the same matter again. The concept is called res judicata (roughly translated from latin as "the thing has already been decided").
    HydraulicJack likes this.
  9. James

    James Well-Known Member

    They could file for an appeal to the higher court, couldn't they?
  10. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Oh, yes...that is a different matter than re-filing a suit. But, yes, appeals are possible. It is not an automatic appeal, though, and they have to usually show an error of law (the findings of fact would generally not be something you could appeal). Appeals are hard to win. It is not a "do over" (or, de novo) trial. You are essentially appealing errors in the first trial. Appellate courts do not act as "super-trial courts" and they give a lot of deference to what was decided at trial court.
    HydraulicJack and James like this.
  11. Forsaken

    Forsaken Well-Known Member

    IB could easily trump up other lawsuits that are equally as ridiculous, just to keep them in court.
    James likes this.
  12. James

    James Well-Known Member

    I'm trying to rack my mind back to the days when I studied the hierarchy of courts... If the case is being heard in the High Court, the next appellate court is the COA, but I believe appeals there have to be a matter of public interest or a serious irregularity in the original proceedings?
  13. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Well, it is easy to file a claim and allege something frivolous. However, I can't really think of what else they might plausibly sue about. If IB loses, it is hard to think of what they might sue on...they would be foreclosed from raising the same issues. Without an IP claim or a breach of contract claim, it is hard to even imagine something they could allege.

    I don't credit IB with either good sense or enough moral fiber or integrity to do what is right. But, even so, I tend to highly doubt that there would be subsequent lawsuits.
    HydraulicJack likes this.
  14. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Sounds like you are asking about UK law....I defer to others more knowledgeable on that subject. However, I do believe the principle holds true generally. Appellate courts are not set up to re-do what the lower courts have already done. That would be incredibly wasteful and unfair to the prevailing party.
    HydraulicJack likes this.
  15. Shamil

    Shamil Well-Known Member

    That is correct.

    After the COA, it can then go to the Supreme Courts, very unlikely.

    Appeals are allowed if the decision in the court below was incorrect, or suffered from a serious procedural error or irregularity.

    HydraulicJack and James like this.
  16. Reeve of Shinra

    Reeve of Shinra Well-Known Member

    The courts usually frown heavily on frivolous lawsuits. After a few of these, XF would have more than enough grounds (above what they already have of course ;)) to file for a restraining order and counter-sue for costs.
    HydraulicJack likes this.
  17. erich37

    erich37 Well-Known Member

    whatever happens, I will still use my XenForo software.
    HydraulicJack and JVCode like this.
  18. therother

    therother Member

    Thanks for the responses, appreciate them. Yes, I think I will get the others to play around here, convince them it's better for our members and for them.

    The thing about what to do if XenForo goes under is probably the main issue for the staff: porting the site and its mods over to a new board, losing one or two things, then having to port back to vB or another forum down the line isn't something they want to do and the threat of it makes them wary. And yes, they are fully aware that this is probably the reaction that IB wanted by filing its suits. I've already offered to buy a XF licence myself, mostly because I think it's the best software out there, but also because I'd rather give XF $140 than let our members donate $285 to IB.

    Part of the problem is the previous head admin died very suddenly, taking with him all the vB and domain info. IB have very generously allowed us to continue using the vB4 version we have installed, but won't allow us access to any upgrades or security patches. I wasn't very favourably disposed towards IB or vB4 anyway, but I find their unwillingness to even countenance anything at all is, well, indicative. But it does mean we effectively have no working vB licence. Which is very worrying, particularly with IB's track record.
  19. EQnoble

    EQnoble Well-Known Member

    I am very sorry to hear of your loss and I identify with your dilemma. The thing is you have all the right in the world to continue using that license, they really aren't letting you do anything. For them to let you believe they are letting you use it like they were looking out for you should portend your future with them explicitly. If you are using it on the same domain that it is registered with at vB and can provide to them who you are in that situation and the circumstances involved, well as a company they should understand and honor you/your team in place of your losses with the ability to keep your friends memory alive through his forum. But this is the difference between vB and XF...over here your another one of us...human....over there...your a userID and an asset. I hate to even revelate on this as I feel cold just repeating what I think their position is on matters of the heart. Rather than support you on happily continuing using their product...they want you to repurchase.

    I'll tell you what...your dilemma is one I have gone through before and in other ways hits home for me. Tell your group this. If for some unjust reason XF losses the case (I doubt this)...I will help cover the costs for you to migrate back to whatever software that you need to. If your team needs that in writing to be secure in moving forward with jumping on XF...feel free to contact me via a private conversation here and we can discuss how we can get them the ace in the hole that they are looking for. You have options, I just think that by the way vB handled your interaction with them...that they are not one.
    HydraulicJack and Saeed like this.
  20. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    At this time, you can not import XenForo to vBulletin. The idea was suggested in their tracker and it was "scrubbed" every time.

    To my knowledge (unless its changed) Internet Brands does not believe XenForo is valid software and thus, they currently have no plans to support any part of it or develop an importer.

    If a worse case did happen, your choices would be Invision Power or to remain with XenForo.

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