John
Well-known member
Reality hasn't stopped them so far. This is personal for them. You watch, I would almost bet they will appeal if they're ruled against in January.
California Case Update
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SchmitzIT
Well-known member
In Dutch law, you'd be right. I once had an employer's lawyer tell me that if I (employed as a software developer/database administrator) would write a book in my spare time, it'd belong to my employer.
I'd have loved being dragged to clourt over that.
In this case, it'd really depend on the contract. My contract specifically states that I am free to do what I want in my own time, as long as it does not interfere with activities that compete with what my employer does.
Wildcat Media
Well-known member
Correct. Or more to the point, from that post:
This is the only way you can file an appeal--if there was an error in the legal or judicial process. Anyone can file an appeal, but it is up to the courts to decide if the appeal has enough merit to proceed.
I've never heard of one company handing over any product or creation as a result of the lawsuit. Usually damages are awarded, including a penalty (punitive damages) if the case has merit. Or injunctions are issued, preventing sale or distribution of the product.
Overall though, the part of the case regarding the code they worked on while in the employ of IB doesn't hold water. vB5 is so vastly different from XF (both in public functionality, and privately in the coding) that there is very little IB could prove to show there were any stolen code or ideas.
The big hurdle will be convincing the jury, who will likely all be neophytes to PHP/MySQL coding, forum software and anything else. They are not going to understand all this. That and the judge has a shaky background (start with the Wikipedia entry on him, and work your way around the 'net).
Wildcat Media
Well-known member
They can try to appeal all they want, but the legal system will not allow an appeal "just because." There has to be an error in the legal process in the original trial before an appeals process could begin. Nothing to with reality, or being personal. The court systems in the US and the UK do not work that way.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
Very true. Though it's worth noting that IB has asked the court for exactly that. They want the court to award them ownership of XF. But as you said, that's basically not going to happen, especially when IB's expert witness testified that there is no stolen code.
John
Well-known member
You all seem to be missing my point. This has never been about winning on the merits of their claims, this is a war of attrition (that is obviously already having the desired effect). If you don't think IB will appeal this if they lose in January (whether they would win an appeal or not), I have to say you are sadly mistaken. Don't forget they have the lawsuit in the UK to pursue if they so chose, also. My point is, it's one thing to be optimistic about the future, it's entirely another to be naive enough to think everything will be back to normal and just fine "if" XF prevails in court in January.
David_
Active member
Want to have my babies?
ManagerJosh
Well-known member
We're not missing your point John. We get it; however trial courts and appeal courts behave differently. Assuming IB looses in January, and they appeal, the question posed is "what can we appeal on?" In general, they do not have any footing right now to appeal on, and even if they wanted to appeal on false grounds, the appeals courts are likely going to throw them out on their butts saying no grounds for appeal.
What's more likely in my book is IB filing another case on different claims and trying to have the courts do a "double jeopardy" type round with XF.
ManagerJosh
Well-known member
Adam Howard
Well-known member
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
It would not surprise me that IB drop this just before the trial. No out of court settlement, as there is nothing to settle. They will simply want to wipe their hands clean and not allow XF the ability to claim costs, thus their aim is achieved by hindering the startup. They know they have no evidence... so court will be futile for them, as their own negligence will be shown and possibly court costs for XF assigned for IB to pay. Therefore it is in IB's favour to drop it just prior to trial.
Peggy
in memoriam 2016
Exactly
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
Which is what I don't really understand. IB told their employee's if they didn't like their rushed, crap method of pushing a half arsed product out the door, to leave. So many did. A couple of them did it better, then IB have the gall to come after them because IB didn't want to listen to their developers, who are apparently stupid and insignificant for selling of software.
Andrew B.
Member
I don't have a link handy, but I think it was on theadminzone where I read about a different IB suit. Something about suing volunteers at wikimedia. Assuming this is true, it sounds like a bully tactic to me. I have a feeling they do business this way. But my understanding is also that one can't appeal for no reason.
Morgain
Well-known member
I have been reading patiently through all the earlier messages on this thread. The possibility of IB acquiring the ownership of XF was already raised, discussed and dismissed. For two reasons. That could only happen if XF was coded by IB employees (Kier and Mike) while under contract to IB; which is an accusation which does not hold, and IB pretty much dropped it quite early on. Secondly the judge decides who gets what on the basis of the judgement. Apparently it is pretty much unheard of to award ownership of the disputed product to the complainant. The worst that can happen if IB win is a fine for XF to pay.
However as I read the details over again it is again clear as it was when I read them before that IB do not have a winnable case.
That was never the aim. The aim was to drain time and energy from XF as a startup competitor company.
To an extent that has happened as XF is not currently being developed further. But it has still survived the two year drain of the court case to be a vigorous and successful forum script.
If the developers can come through their current exhaustion and the personal crises it has caused XF will go on next year from strength to strength. I think they can do that. They just need some retreat time right now and the period between now and the end of the year is just the right length of time to retreat and recover (ex-therapist talking here). By December they should be able to perk up.
If they don't there are alternative avenues for XF to take so it keeps going, which have been mentioned. So XF future is to be either a KAM project or not. But XF itself will continue.
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