California Case Update

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What would constitute as damage though?
The statute defines it as "(8)the term “damage” means any impairment to the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or information;" 18 USC § 1030.


So, it's more along the lines of breaking stuff and does not include looking at stuff. From what I gathered, that is what they say Kier did...they say he looked. That is not a violation of the law (even if it were true).
 
This is the quick answer....meaning I have not looked at other cases and have not researched any nuances here. But, I think Pam's brief accurately states the definition of damages:

“To allege a loss under the CFAA, plaintiffs must identify impairment of or damage to the computer
system that was accessed without authorization.” AtPac, Inc. v. Aptitude Solutions, Inc., 730 F. Supp. 2d 1174, 1184 (E.D. Cal. 2010)

The point is that the CFAA requires damage to the computer system. This can be caused by denial of use (think DOS attack or somehow using massive resources in such a way as to impair the normal use of the system). Or it might be as a result of viruses, malicious code, etc. being inserted. That is what most of the commentary I have read has discused, these two types of situations.

If I understand the bare-bones allegations, Kier somehow looked at some code at the request of vB employees. (TBH, I don't know if I really know what they are alleging because it is pretty unclear). Let's suppose this is true. The problem is that this does not damage the "computer system." I think what the allegation was trying to get at is that in looking at the code, Kier learned something that he used in developing XF. While I think this is clearly not the case, for CFAA purposes, even if true, it does not amount to damage to the system. The result is the claim should fail.

Per http://computerfraud.us/articles/suing-employees-for-computer-fraud-gets-easier



The 3d Circuit’s decision in U.S. v. Tolliver, 2011 WL 4090472 at *1 (3d Cir. Sept. 15, 2011), made clear that company policies, such as those relied upon in Nosal, are not the only way to prove that an employee accessed the company computer “without authorization.” The court upheld the CFAA conviction of Regina Tolliver, a former bank teller for Citizens Bank who provided confidential customer account information to “check runners” who “cashed fraudulent checks against the accounts of seven Citizens Bank customers in branches in upstate New York, western Pennsylvania, and Delaware.” Id. Without reference to any bank policies the court held that “there was sufficient evidence” upon which “the government established that Tolliver exceeded her authorized access” because “she did not have a business purpose” to access the customers’ accounts. Id. at *5. 


While Tolliver actually removed data from her employer’s computer to facilitate the writing of fraudulent checks, the employee in U.S. v. Teague, 646 F.3d 1119 (8th Cir. 2011), only viewed data in the computer, did not remove it and did not use it. Yet the 8th Circuit applied the CFAA to these facts and, in doing, upheld the criminal conviction of Sandra Teague, an employee of a government contractor for the U.S. Department of Education, for accessing President Obama’s record in the National Student Loan Data System.

She had been convicted of violating the CFAA for exceeding unauthorized access to a computer in violation of 18 U.S.C. 1030 (a)(2)(B). This section of the CFAA makes it a crime to intentionally exceed authorized access to a computer and obtain information from the computer. Based solely on her viewing the Obama student loan data, the court found the government had proved the critical CFAA element of having obtained information. 

 
IIRC, Kier was asked to assist with issues, and thus granted access to the IB systems. Hence, there was no break-in, no hacking. Unless he poked around systems he was not specifically asked to check, or that were somehow not directly related to the issue he was looking into, I would say IB has no case, even with the new decision.

The bank teller's case states the teller logged into specific accounts she had no business being in, which thus constitutes a breach.
 
IIRC, Kier was asked to assist with issues, and thus granted access to the IB systems. Hence, there was no break-in, no hacking. Unless he poked around systems he was not specifically asked to check, or that were somehow not directly related to the issue he was looking into, I would say IB has no case, even with the new decision.
Kinda of like saying, I invited someone into my house, knowingly; and then trying to have them arrested for trespassing.

Seriously how can one even argue as to what was required to solve the problem? At first you might think it is just A, but then you have to check B, C, D, and E to make sure nothing else got screwed up.
 
Kick butt Pam... really glad to see a whole lot more in these documents about the cross continent issues. I could just never figure out how a US judge could get involved in a matter that was between two English companies... completely outside of their jurisdiction, even if the parent company is located in California now... the employed company was an English company that Kier and Mike were employed by, and that company is still active. If anything, that was IB's mistake IMO by re-registering that at the last minute when it was about to expire as a UK company.

That's like one Australian company ripping off Citi-Bank in Australia, and having to face prosecution in the US because that's their headquarters. It just doesn't work that way... which I have never been able to comprehend why a US judge got involved in this in the first place between two UK companies / UK citizens.

Pam is really on the job... and its excellent to see such proactive force being applied to VB in order to step-up and actually provide some damn proof of all their nonsense accusations. She got it right early in that document, that VB are upset over their own failings to provide a quality product in VB4, so customers moved away to a newer product. Lots of customers shifted to IPB before Xenforo hit the market. They had to be losing money right from the get go for new licenses of VB4, beyond their initial pre-sale fraudulent nonsense, delivering nothing close to what was stated.

Once VB is out of the picture, XF will dominate IMHO for no other reason than its so unique compared to what anyone else is doing, and it works flawlessly and is run by people who actually interact and be nice to their customers, not take their money and treat them like crap.
 
Per http://computerfraud.us/articles/suing-employees-for-computer-fraud-gets-easier



The 3d Circuit’s decision in U.S. v. Tolliver, 2011 WL 4090472 at *1 (3d Cir. Sept. 15, 2011), made clear that company policies, such as those relied upon in Nosal, are not the only way to prove that an employee accessed the company computer “without authorization.” The court upheld the CFAA conviction of Regina Tolliver, a former bank teller for Citizens Bank who provided confidential customer account information to “check runners” who “cashed fraudulent checks against the accounts of seven Citizens Bank customers in branches in upstate New York, western Pennsylvania, and Delaware.” Id. Without reference to any bank policies the court held that “there was sufficient evidence” upon which “the government established that Tolliver exceeded her authorized access” because “she did not have a business purpose” to access the customers’ accounts. Id. at *5. 


While Tolliver actually removed data from her employer’s computer to facilitate the writing of fraudulent checks, the employee in U.S. v. Teague, 646 F.3d 1119 (8th Cir. 2011), only viewed data in the computer, did not remove it and did not use it. Yet the 8th Circuit applied the CFAA to these facts and, in doing, upheld the criminal conviction of Sandra Teague, an employee of a government contractor for the U.S. Department of Education, for accessing President Obama’s record in the National Student Loan Data System.

She had been convicted of violating the CFAA for exceeding unauthorized access to a computer in violation of 18 U.S.C. 1030 (a)(2)(B). This section of the CFAA makes it a crime to intentionally exceed authorized access to a computer and obtain information from the computer. Based solely on her viewing the Obama student loan data, the court found the government had proved the critical CFAA element of having obtained information. 

You have to understand, when looking at this issue, that there are numerous sections of the CFAA...so, the quotation above and the underlined portions are referencing a different section than the one on damaging the computer...So, what section are we talking about in this case? That's what Pam asked and pointed out that vB has not alleged which section they are describing. (Which is another reason the claim should be dismissed, you need to plead enough to put the other party on notice of what they are supposed to have done). But, I think that one could, looking at para. 88 of the Second Amended Complaint, see that they are alleging at least $5000 damage, which seems most logically to relate to:

knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization, or exceeds authorized access, and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value, unless the object of the fraud and the thing obtained consists only of the use of the computer and the value of such use is not more than $5,000 in any 1-year period;

If that is the section, you need intent to defraud and you need to have a fraud...nothing that has been alleged seems to fit this category. And it seems quite apart from the analysis in the article you quoted. So, I stand by my original view that this article really does not implicate this case at all.
 
I forgot to point this out....the CFAA discussion above in the article relates to the criminal provisions. The civil provisions state:

(g) Any person who suffers damage or loss by reason of a violation of this section may maintain a civil action against the violator to obtain compensatory damages and injunctive relief or other equitable relief. A civil action for a violation of this section may be brought only if the conduct involves 1 of the factors set forth in subclauses (I), (II), (III), (IV), or (V) of subsection (c)(4)(A)(i). Damages for a violation involving only conduct described in subsection (c)(4)(A)(i)(I) are limited to economic damages. No action may be brought under this subsection unless such action is begun within 2 years of the date of the act complained of or the date of the discovery of the damage. No action may be brought under this subsection for the negligent design or manufacture of computer hardware, computer software, or firmware.

As a predicate to any relief, you have to have damages. I don't think there is any that can be shown/proven, so another reason this claim fails (as if anyone needed more reasons). I have not taken a look at the timeline, either, but I wonder what the dates are of the alleged violation and would look to compare that to the Second Amended Complaint....there may well be a statute of limitations issue, here.

EDIT: I think there is a statute of limitations issue. First, there is an allegation that before Kier left employment, he altered his access level to the VBSI computer system (SAC., Para. 26, 27, 29). The allegation that he accessed it later is devoid of time reference, except to state that "After his departure." (SAC Para. 41.). The Second Amended complaint is dated October 21, 2011. Kier left vB in June, 2009. Now, if vB claims recent "discovery" of this "damage" they may have some latitude. I am not sure how this resolves, but it is an issue to look at.
 
Do you mind pointing out where it says that? I haven't had time to trawl through the documents. :(
Page 11 - http://c746070.r70.cf2.rackcdn.com/92.pdf

"Due to catastrophic management decisions by VBSI’s parent company since the Jelsoft acquisition, the entire Jelsoft software development team resigned in disgust after witnessing vBulletin's fraudulent statements to its customers and poor software design choices. VBSI concedes that it has lost over $12 million in that period, but it would try to pin the blame on former employees who left the company to design their own software product from scratch. More than one year after the filing of VBSI's first complaint and after the completion of all fact and expert discovery, VBSI is still trying to come up with a legal theory to put the blame for its failed vBulletin 4 product on others. The legal theories are meritless for all of the reasons described below. The Second Amended Complaint should be dismissed without leave to amend."
 
Ouch
I suppose to keep confidence with the shareholders, they're trying to pass the blame onto others, with this lawsuit.
 
I forgot to point this out....the CFAA discussion above in the article relates to the criminal provisions....EDIT: I think there is a statute of limitations issue. First, there is an allegation that before Kier left employment, he altered his access level to the VBSI computer system (SAC., Para. 26, 27, 29). The allegation that he accessed it later is devoid of time reference, except to state that "After his departure." (SAC Para. 41.). The Second Amended complaint is dated October 21, 2011. Kier left vB in June, 2009. Now, if vB claims recent "discovery" of this "damage" they may have some latitude. I am not sure how this resolves, but it is an issue to look at.

EXCELLENT work, counselor, Thanks!
 
I've been trying to follow the case but this thread is so long and complicated, I'm totally confused as to where things stand. I just hope Xenforo wins and this ridiculousness is put to an end.
 
I've been trying to follow the case but this thread is so long and complicated, I'm totally confused as to where things stand. I just hope Xenforo wins and this ridiculousness is put to an end.
Basically they're trying to sort things out on both ends, and waiting for a trial with jury. So they're at the beginning of it all and it won't be over soon. As unfortunate and sadistically pathetic, disgusting and financially damaging that might be.
 
Are they serious??

"Indeed, Bingham still works for Internet Brands and is being represented by the same counsel who is accusing him of racketeering."
 
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