Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Birmingham unrest - Live
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675
Ashamed to be British
- Thread starter Deebs
- Start date
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Just thinking out loud, but if your cops had guns and your police departments had SWAT teams, would this still be happening? Sometimes a credible threat of force is all that is necessary to avoid the actual use of force.
Living in Texas, you grow up knowing that if a Texas Ranger ever yells for you to halt, you do it within the space of a heartbeat. They typically don't ask twice.
Living in Texas, you grow up knowing that if a Texas Ranger ever yells for you to halt, you do it within the space of a heartbeat. They typically don't ask twice.
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
We do have armed police, specialist armed response teams operate within every police force in the UK, the highest numbers within the city forces, and the Met in London the highest of all. Not all police are armed as we simply don't have the levels of gun ownership/crime nor,normally, public order situations that occur elsewhere - nothing on this scale has ever occurred in the UK before. We also have an ever increasing number of officers armed with tasers, in addition to the fully armed units.
I am not convinced opening fire with live rounds would help the situation, far too many innocent people, including terrified mothers & kids were trapped in amongst many 'hot-spots', including those forced from their homes because of fires and those stranded by public transport (buses, trams, tube & trains) being locked down and police road blocks. The first night of riots started after a peaceful protest about police shooting and killing a man, the last thing we need is any innocent people being killed, it would just make the whole thing worst.
We also have a version of SWAT teams, in London it's the Territorial Support Group (TSG) which normally take the lead with public order situations among other specialist policing, but that's only 720 officers out of about 30,000 in total. There are additional officers trained for serious public order problems, but I have no idea what percentage in total.
The thing is in most cities that had trouble last night the situation was kept under various levels of 'reasonable' control, the biggest problem was in London - with new flash points popping-up every few minutes, often with people melting away quickly and then returning again later or popping-up somewhere else.
Something like over 50 different locations scattered across a very wide area of London, a city of about 8 million, were involved with only about 1400 specially trained 'riot police' available, the only ones equipped and allowed to deal with the worst situations, 6000 police in total and 3 helicopters initially. Although at least 2 extra helicopters were brought in from both Surrey & Sussex police forces and I think 300 extra 'riot police' were bused in from nine neighboring forces too.
But the scale of events, something no one had expected, and as I said earlier has never happened on this scale, left the police totally unprepared. Reports are coming thick & thin and there's a lot of rumors amongst facts, but there's certainly talk of police from right across the UK being brought into London tonight and perhaps even water cannon being brought over from Northern Ireland, it's said no mainland police force has them. I am not sure water cannon will help much, they will not be able to move them around quick enough to deal with so many different 'hot-spots'.
There's calls for the army to to be brought in, but I can't see that happening myself, that's a serious political hot potato.
The fires have been a major issue, often set in areas where there's no police as they are dealing with problems in other areas, and the fire service can't more in until the police arrive, clear & secure the area, as they have come under attack.
Not sure what the answer is, I hope enough police can put in place for tonight, they need to bring this under control quickly now. Another problem is what to do with those arrested, our prisons are overflowing already, and the rioters/looters know it.
Personally I had expected some riots this summer, but nothing on this scale, things have been building for a long time, it's like a pressure cooker that has finally exploded.
We already had major problems in many inner city areas, before the recession, youngsters that have little chance of making anything of themselves because of things like schools failing them, lack of jobs, totally disenfranchised and with no real stalk in their community, the gap between the rich & poor continues to raise, massive government cut-backs in services, tax increases, fuel & food costs out of control, etc., etc.
It's certainly not as easy as dismissing it as a few louts and criminals, this is a far bigger problem, there are increasing numbers across the country that feel fed-up with being screwed over by the banks and big business and what they see as their political puppets.
One post I read made an interesting point - whatever the cost of damage to property in all this, it will still only be a tiny fraction of the damage inflicted by the bankers - and they walked away with massive bonuses and pay-offs, not just a telly from Curry's.
I am certainly not making excuses for them, just trying to put some context to it.
And just to add one last thing - these are NOT race riots, if they need a label 'class war' perhaps sums it up better.
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
Google map of London riots - verified areas:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691
Very depressing.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691
Very depressing.
Ingenious
Well-known member
There were some unintentional comedy moments on BBC News 24 last night in the way that only the BBC can do.
They had the guy on the phone who owned that HUGE furniture shop which was burned down. He'd just given a heart tugging account of how it had been in his family for five generations and 15 people are now out of jobs, his father had watched it burn down live on TV. He said he'd been there when the trouble started but was powerless to stop. This exchange followed:
News presenter: You say you were there when the trouble started, did they loot your shop first or just set it on fire?
Shop owner: Well as I sell three piece suites I think the answer to that is obvious, no, I didn't see youths coming out with sofas on their heads!
(Typical British sense of humour in the face of adversity there even though your whole life has just burned to a cinder).
And earlier they switched from live coverage of the riots at 10.30pm... for the latest weather forecast!
That aside, what a very frightening night
They had the guy on the phone who owned that HUGE furniture shop which was burned down. He'd just given a heart tugging account of how it had been in his family for five generations and 15 people are now out of jobs, his father had watched it burn down live on TV. He said he'd been there when the trouble started but was powerless to stop. This exchange followed:
News presenter: You say you were there when the trouble started, did they loot your shop first or just set it on fire?
Shop owner: Well as I sell three piece suites I think the answer to that is obvious, no, I didn't see youths coming out with sofas on their heads!
(Typical British sense of humour in the face of adversity there even though your whole life has just burned to a cinder).
And earlier they switched from live coverage of the riots at 10.30pm... for the latest weather forecast!
That aside, what a very frightening night
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
^^^ I thought all that too.
This poor women jumping from a burning building must have been well scared...
Police numbers in London tonight are going up from 6,000 to 16,000 - I hope that's enough to regain control.
This poor women jumping from a burning building must have been well scared...
Police numbers in London tonight are going up from 6,000 to 16,000 - I hope that's enough to regain control.
gordy
Well-known member
Texas is really tough on looting, I remember when hurricane Alicia hit Houston in 83 the National Guard was ordered to shoot looters on site. Justice.
Fufu
Well-known member
To own a firearm in Hawai'i is illegal, unless you prove to a judge you are in fear for your life.
Stats for gun right granted in Hawai'i is about zero.
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
Sounds like it's starting to kick-off again, and so early in the afternoon.
Loads of reports of shopping centres, shops, train stations, etc closing & bringing down shutters/boarding-up, large groups gathering at various hotspots and some arrests already.
I hope the police can hold things today.
Loads of reports of shopping centres, shops, train stations, etc closing & bringing down shutters/boarding-up, large groups gathering at various hotspots and some arrests already.
I hope the police can hold things today.
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
They should be, being in Reading which is west of London by some miles.
Main trouble is across London, other cities - Birmingham (2nd city, middle of the country), Liverpool (North-West) and Bristol (South-West). No reports of trouble in towns like Reading, or here in Worthing, for example, this is more an inner-city problem.
BTW - hope the surgery went OK and wish you an early recovery.
Shelley
Well-known member
16,000 officers (whom most are not specialised to deal on the frontline) won't be enough. If tonight is not contained and these *******s (only word i can describe these *****) I hope the army is brought in if not I think some vigilante justice is needed here. If there was a time for Britain (communities) to pull together it's now because this hangs on tonight imo if it's not contained this will only escalate further.
Felt really sorry for the guy & hist brother whom had his business for 140 years burnt down to nothing. I really hope that when justice comes for these clowns it won't be a slap on the wrist.
Felt really sorry for the guy & hist brother whom had his business for 140 years burnt down to nothing. I really hope that when justice comes for these clowns it won't be a slap on the wrist.
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
Where did you hear this?
Only twitter has proved to be VERY unreliable, loads of false reports, some even being picked-up by certain media outlets and repeated without checking.
One classic was London Zoo had been broken into, wild animals roaming the streets of London.
DoctorWatsOn
Well-known member
The last thing we need is to deploy the army, apart from the legal situation, they are not trained like the police to deal with situations like this, and the message it will send to the markets would cost us dearly.
The extra 10,000 cops tonight and their plans to use baton charges, rubber bullets, if required, will I hope bring it to a end.
Shelley
Well-known member
I'll agree partially, But if tonight is not contained and this escalates to your area your going to be praying that the army is there to contain these hooligans whom don't have a agenda but to destroy lives and nothing else. Personally, i think they need shot on site but that is just my opinion. Sorry but people whom work hard all their lives only for these *******s to (in an instance) to destroy that in one foul swoop.
Anyway, hopefully this will be contained tonight and the 16,000 officers whom most are not specialised to deal with these situations will nip this in the bud.
Where did you hear this?
Only twitter has proved to be VERY unreliable, loads of false reports, some even being picked-up by certain media outlets and repeated without checking.
One classic was London Zoo had been broken into, wild animals roaming the streets of London.
Had a friend who was supposed to come for dinner today. Police have been knocking on doors and advising people to stay in after there was some reported activity.
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