3rd party developer feedback forums.

[trapped_soul]

I am pretty sure it's been mentioned before but I can't find anything so I apologise in advance.
Here is another disastrous feedback about a developer gone wrong posted by @rtr2006 ;
https://xenforo.com/community/threads/goodfella-left-me-high-and-broke.147232/
It's not the first thread of it's kind and no doubt won't be the last.

I know we have the add-on threads themselves to create feedback, however you may miss some posts - especially if new.
But wouldn't it be better to have a dedicated forum section where people can post about such things?

Not for bashing people but where they can leave their feedback when a dev goes AWOL or rips someone off?
It would be the best for us all as a community surely?
Let's recall another. None of us saw that one coming (you know who) but it did happen and maybe some people could have had the opportunity to express their concerns there.
I myself have experienced it and lost almost £1k with one dev. Luckily I was able to claim some of it back..
Another time, I was approached by someone to do a Payment Gateway for me for something ridiculous like £300.. (too cheap FYI). and I had a wobble. When I checked reviews which took me hours, I eventually realised he's a scammer on here.....

But fact is there are a lot of horror stories about certain devs on here. I genuinely believe it would be in the community's interest to have a section where we can post about such things. IMHO off topic doesn't cut it, the case above is serious and he's lost hard earned money. A lot too.
I just think it would be better for us as a whole, to have a dedicated area where we can openly talk about these things - without it becoming a flame war, without it becoming a bashing thread etc etc
I do see the implications in such an area, as an admin myself - of course I do. I know it can be a double edged sword and also be a case of he said/she said etc but where else can people raise awareness of such things?

Imagine being a newbie here and looking at splashing out on a few quid for a decent add-on.. you'd never know how/where to find any bad feedback as the add-on threads get swamped.
I'm not talking about someone being unhappy because *ABC* - I'm talking about members who get fleeced by some devs on here.

Just a suggestion and idea that I, as well as many others, think should be taken into consideration please..

 

[Ozzy47]

I do believe these sort of discussions should not be in an off topic area. I do see a issue though of when to allow someone to start a discussion, it would be difficult to discern who was at fault.

 

[S Thomas]

Simple solution would be, if you want to provide custom services as a dev, open a general thread for that, so it's transparent to everyone.

 

[RobParker]

I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or if it's a new policy or something but I'm sure there were always loads of threads with people reviewing developers and posting their experiences. I'm fairly sure they weren't in the off-topic forum...

 

[Ozzy47]

Simple solution would be, if you want to provide custom services as a dev, open a general thread for that, so it's transparent to everyone.

Not so simple, there are a lot of developers that use the PC system exclusively to contact people looking for addons.

 

[Paul B]

In this case, some basic due diligence would have revealed that this particular individual is not known for being a developer, does not have a thread in the third party services forum, has no real add-ons to speak of, and has posted the type of questions you wouldn't typically expect from an experienced developer.

 

[Sheldon]

I long for the days of common sense.

 

[Ozzy47]

There is not much of that around anymore.

 

[trapped_soul]

I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or if it's a new policy or something but I'm sure there were always loads of threads with people reviewing developers and posting their experiences. I'm fairly sure they weren't in the off-topic forum...

The last one was off topic (after being moved).. I hear you but imagine say for example, the Widget thread. Hundreds of pages long, easy to lose negative issues.

In this case, some basic due diligence would have revealed that this particular individual is not known for being a developer, does not have a thread in the third party services forum, has no real add-ons to speak of, and has posted the type of questions you wouldn't typically expect from an experienced developer.

Agreed, but we're not all fortunate enough to have that kind of insight. Some of us are and do some digging first, but clearly some don't. Obviously I would never part with the amount of money that was traded either - but some sort of reviews area, almost say a public complaints area, would definitely help in these situations.

I long for the days of common sense.

Same, but again, we have the experience behind us which gives us the foresight into knowing who is a good and trustworthy dev and who is not.
Gaining that experience through losing £1500 is far from ideal. Isn't it.

I know there's a risk involved with taking it to the point of flaming and trolling someone. But let's be honest now, in the nigh on 4 years I have been here, these kind of situations crop up regularly. It would be advantageous to us all as a community, to know who to be wary of collectively.

 

[S Thomas]

Not so simple, there are a lot of developers that use the PC system exclusively to contact people looking for addons.

Does not interfere with a rule which forces devs to have a general thread.

 

[Alpha1]

XenForo has a large ecosystem of people who are not known as service providers or not even posting in the forums. Yet they contact people by conversation in regards to service- / addon requests. Often the messages seem really sketchy.

This modus operandi flies wholly under the radar. I'd bet that most of the trainwrecks are never publicly posted about.

 

[Paul B]

I don't disagree with the comments made in this (and other) threads.

Several times we have discussed internally having some sort of third party feedback system.

If I was in charge I would run things very differently, but I'm not, so I can't.

 

[trapped_soul]

XenForo has a large ecosystem of people who are not known as service providers or not even posting in the forums. Yet they contact people by conversation in regards to service- / addon requests. Often the messages seem really sketchy.

This modus operandi flies wholly under the radar. I'd bet that most of the trainwrecks are never publicly posted about.

Agreed, hence my mentioning of my Paygates request a couple of years back. I still have the message somewhere. Everywhere I looked; "this guy's a spammer/shark" etc and it was all done by conversations.

I don't disagree with the comments made in this (and other) threads.

Several times we have discussed internally having some sort of third party feedback system.

If I was in charge I would run things very differently, but I'm not, so I can't.

Yes, totally understand that.

 

[RobParker]

I don't disagree with the comments made in this (and other) threads.

Several times we have discussed internally having some sort of third party feedback system.

If I was in charge I would run things very differently, but I'm not, so I can't.

I'm sure there have been threads where people have posted to discuss their experience (good or bad) with a developer. Has the policy changed to not allow those any more?

 

[Alpha1]

I'd like to add that the continuous trainwrecks that have been taken place over the years and are still taken place, are to the detriment of xenforo as a platform. it is a prime reason why webmasters give up on xenforo and move to platforms that require less addons and that enforce more legitimacy and some more control on service providers.

I mean, after you have lost so much to problematic service providers and you end up out of budget. What else can you do but jump ship?
Who can you trust after you have already encountered dozens of rotten apples? For many people its an impossible situation.

Not regulating the anonymous service providers is also a choice. One that effects xenforo as a platform in a very negative way.

 

[Paul B]

Has the policy changed to not allow those any more?

No change, hence this thread: https://xenforo.com/community/threads/goodfella-left-me-high-and-broke.147232/

 

[Freelancer]

it is a prime reason why webmasters give up on xenforo and move to platforms that require less addons and that enforce more legitimacy and some more control on service providers.

I sign my name under that comment.

 

[Optic]

The solution is simple, have a pre-vetted developer directory that list what services they offer (themes, plugin development, forum conversions, etc.) developer user reviews and also list all their resources/portfolio.

IPS have done this on their Marketplace:
https://invisioncommunity.com/third-party/providers/

As for my own personal experience, the only time I've been stung was during the B. saga, I had 2x custom plugins developed by that group:
https://xenforo.com/community/threads/resource-removal.92263/

If I had the hindsight back then I would not have had approached them for custom development but they seemed trustworthy and genuine at the time and had many plugins that met many of our needs which others were also using too.

I was also so close to joining the crowdfund for that XenReviews project, and thankfully chose not to. We all know how that turned out:
https://xenforo.com/community/threads/xenreviews-crowdfund.61174/

In the past, I've had a range of plugins custom developed with no issues, from several developers including: @Xon @ForumCube @ThemeHouse @alexD

I really do believe when we approach developers for custom development we have the best of intentions in mind, but it's just too difficult to leave feedback. And newcomers probably have the same problem.

 

[trapped_soul]

I really do believe when we approach developers for custom development we have the best of intentions in mind, but it's just too difficult to leave feedback. And newcomers probably have the same problem.

Indeed and I also think newcomers will find it difficult to see the wood from the trees too with who is trustworthy and who is not.

 

[Yugensoft]

The issue is removing risk, on both sides. A bidirectional review system on proven trades (which I'd be in favour of) could only help part of that.

On the client side, a simple way to avoid risk on larger projects is waypointing with visuals: i.e. they should be regularly pushing code to a repository which you have access to.

Then at a minimum, they know their progress is being watched, and if they ditch without refunding, you at least have something you can submit to the market for completion bids.

On the developer side, risk management (especially for customers as opposed to clients, due to the exponential return curve) means crowdfunding. This also means reduced waste on the client side as they can spread costs, and this also reduces their risk. But that's unconditionally banned here, as some of the aforementioned bad devs poisoned that well, obviously beyond what XF was willing to keep cleaning up.

So there's definately room for bridging some quite substantial gaps.

I'm sure things like this have been discussed for a long time (assurance, escrow, crowfunding, etc), without any real resolutions. But perhaps this is because it's not the place to resolve it. XF appears to employ only 1 full time customer support staff member. And according to builtwith, XF runs on about 14k active websites. By comparison, wordpress based forums run on north of 250k.

Therefore, due to economies of scale, it makes more sense for a community like theadminzone, which covers all forum software, to take more of a leading role on this question.

It's not really XFs job to actively manage 3rd party aftermarkets, their expertise is making a competitive forum software. And no doubt they've done the accounting that it can't pan out being worth it, versus focusing on their core competency: making a good forum and marketing it.

So there's solutions, the only question is how and who should implement them.