2021-07-07 License agreement update issue

[Black Tiger]

Illegal in which standards? UK? EU? Legal standards in the homeland of the forum owner? So is it ok, so use xenforo to discuss about homosexuality? With a forum located in a country, where these kind of public discussion is prohibited by law. Just as an example, there are a lot others.

Exactly! Who's deciding the violation of the agreement, by which standards? You described it better then me.

if Xenforo itself started policing license holders and revoking licenses for what they determined were violations of the law... wherever. Anywhere? Everywhere? If that were to happen, then yes, I would agree that probably more precise wording would be called for.

I don't see anywhere that this is or will not be the case due to the addition of the new things mentioned (harassment etc.). Which is why I find it unclear.

 

[PaulB]

XenForo has clarified their interpretation. I don’t think it’s necessary to continue delving into hypotheticals and pedantry. I find the wording of the agreement itself ambiguous but am satisfied with the clarification.

Can we leave this at a request to include that clarification in the text of the agreement itself and move on?

 

[imno007]

I don't see anywhere that this is or will not be the case due to the addition of the new things mentioned (harassment etc.). Which is why I find it unclear.

It would seem to make zero business sense to me for them to attempt to personally uphold the laws of hundreds of different countries, states, counties, principalities, etc. As soon as they start doing that, they start leaking customers like a broken sieve. So for now, I personally will asume they have some common sense. Now, unfortunately, as time passes, laws might be enacted that require them to do such active policing, but that would be part of a much bigger problem...

 

[Black Tiger]

XenForo has clarified their interpretation

Where? I only see statements they won't clarify anything? I might have missed something. But I didn't see which standards will be used if complaints arrive in their mailbox.

 

[nopitter]

Exactly! Who's deciding the violation of the agreement, by which standards? You described it better then me.

Calm down. Really. I get your point. But:

1. xenForo owners can phrase the license, as they want to - ok, according the law of England and Wales . You can agree. Or not. That's it.
2. in my taste, discussion here goes a little bit far from facts. I do not know exactly the reason, for changing/clearifing the license. But I am sure, there is a reason. And the problems are mentioned. So give time to think about it.

Peter

 

[PaulB]

It would seem to make zero business sense to me for them to attempt to personally uphold the laws of hundreds of different countries, states, counties, principalities, etc. As soon as they start doing that, they start leaking customers like a broken sieve. So for now, I personally will asume they have some common sense. Now, unfortunately, as time passes, laws might be enacted that require them to do such active policing, but that would be part of a much bigger problem...

Every country thinks everyone should uphold their laws. It's not really worth worrying about how the agreement itself handles that.

Where? I only see statements they won't clarify anything? I might have missed something. But I didn't see which standards will be used if complaints arrive in their mailbox.

I thought these two posts clarified the intention fairly well:

1. https://xenforo.com/community/threads/2021-07-07-license-agreement-update-issue.196187/post-1526110
2. https://xenforo.com/community/threads/2021-07-07-license-agreement-update-issue.196187/post-1526116

I don't want to put words in their mouths, but my understanding of what they're saying can be reduced to, "don't use XenForo to create a safe haven for illegal or blatantly abusive content."

I'd like the threshold to be explained a bit less vaguely within the text of the agreement to avoid misinterpretation by a third-party, but I'm fine with XenForo's interpretation.

 

[Kirby]

It's very unprofessional to not clarify who will decide what is a violation of right.

Well, there isn't anything that needs to be clarified as the answer is obvious and always the same:
Ultimately courts will decide.
It the the hypothetical case that XenForo revokes your license because you were using it to "violate others rights", you would take them to court and pledge that this is not the case.

Basically it's IMHO just a political statement: "We care about how our product is being used", not more and not less.

 

[Black Tiger]

Calm down. Really. I get your point.

You do, but seems others not. I'm calm, I was just glad somebody had a way to write more clearly what I ment.
We can phrase the license as we want for our users, but we still have to obey the license to Xenforo.
I know I can agree or not, I just don't want to risk loosing my license because of some complaint, hence the question to who's standards it will be measured. I don't understand what is so difficult for Xen for answering that question.

I went far because I got the impression Xen did not understand what my fear was, and there was also my fear we're going like Facebook where now you already get an automatic ban when using the word black, so fear of loosing license for some stupid complaint...

I thought these two posts clarified the intention fairly well:

Not at all. That part is already known to me but that is an intention, not an answer to "to who's standards" or to any example mentioned which is really an issue now every year in our country. That's not a single post anymore.

the licensee is responsible for any content posted using the software.

and here is what I needed clarification about.. by who's standards when we're now talking about the grey area from the words added.

It is not an attempt to punish licensees for the occasional off-colour post from users.

I hope so, but an agreement is a legal part. So they -can- if they want, like facebook does. It's a pity.
Hence my fear (also due to my experience with other company's in my 32 years of ICT), hence my request for clarity.

t the the hypothetical case that XenForo revokes your license because you were using it to "violate others rights", you would take them to court and pledge that this is not the case.

Great.... so the world on it's head. Guilty until proven innocent, instead of the other way around like it should be.

I'm sure they're not out for some post of a user, and probably I won't get my answer. So I keep it at my statement that I will agree under protest of being left unclear about standards and only accept violation complaints if they are also illegal by law and now only by Xen's standards.

Political statement? Then keep it that way, don't put it in a piece of law like an agreement.

Anyway, I think we're done since I likely will not get an answer to the black peter example or any other grey area. Don't harass us then with violation complaints when a discussion about that starts again on Dutch forums.

 

[RobParker]

Everyone pretending that software licenses mean anything?

I’m very happy that XF will take a fair and common sense approach. If someone’s trying to exploit the license terms to troll a forum user, I don’t see XF being a pushover or they’d lose customers.

p.s. I’m pretty sure the XF team have a lawyer…

 

[Black Tiger]

Still... won't take second license as it's just my opinion that company's and sports should not interfere with social issues. If somebody takes over Xen, then suddenly things can get a weird way.

Well oke. Since I know Kier from the past days as a very fair and good guy, in the old VB days and also with Xen before I was a customer, I will trust on the good intentions. And indeed they'd lose customers too if they start to get FB tricks.

Be aware, I can have a (sometimes hard) discussion to get things clear, especially if I do'nt quite understand them. But it's always just a functional discussion, I tend not to get personal and ofcourse not to break down great software as Xenforo in fact is!
Which I'm still very happy with.

 

[Rhody]

I commend them for the small change, and think it is being over analyzed.

I see it as giving them an "out" if a forum owner was using it for something really bad, like child trafficking, an actual hate or terror group, etc. It lets them distance themselves, and the product, to avoid potential bad media or being named in a suit. Our agreements with our own forum members are still between us and them, and I seriously doubt XF would ever have to act on this.

 

[Black Tiger]

Experiences from the past (not with Xenforo, but with others and especially which you see now on FB) causes fear on what might happen.
But probably my fear was unfounded, let's hope it was.

 

[Mr Lucky]

, and there was also my fear we're going like Facebook where now you already get an automatic ban when using the word black

Absolutely not true.

 

[Black Tiger]

Absolutely not true.

Oke not only the word itself. But try the word Zwarte Piet or Black Peter then. Good luck. Post will also be removed.
That might be a bit grey, but I've seen totally innocent reactions which gave a ban. Also for just saying when was talked that somebody had a very expensive villa "oh where does he live then"?
Ban... asking for addresses was forbidden. And he didn't even ask for an address... LoL.
Really -all- automatic FB filters (not only about colour or religion or what) are too strict.
But that's off topic here and I won't start a discussion about that, nore reply to it. I've seen the prooves of idiot reason bans there.

 

[nopitter]

You do, but seems others not. I'm calm,

No You are Dutch, i am German, XF is English. So in general, law is - more ore less - the same, and I am shure, nitpicking is not XF's task.

Look to it from another perspective. Im am running a forum about "knifes" since almost 20 years. All kind of knife-fighting topics are forbitten. Not because of the law, but because it makes no sense (blabla of wannabees blabla).

Googles adsense is running.

Every week I got a message from google, that *this *advertising ist stopped, because of weapons blabla. Truth is, there are 99% no weapons in a thread, according german law. German weapon law is very ristrictive. And i know it very well. So, google is wrong.

Does it make sense, to discuss that with google? Of course not.

Would it make sense, to discuss that with xf owners. Maybe yes. Main difference is, you know the people. There is a Kier - from which im know (YT), he likes to be barefoot on summer.

So, if there are any problems, would you discuss with rather YT oder Kier.

For me, I would trust Kier (as being a human) - more than a big network.

The point is, who do you trust. For me, I trust XF owners. Maybe, thats the wrong decision. We will see.

Peter

 

[Black Tiger]

The point is, who do you trust. For me, I trust XF owners. Maybe, thats the wrong decision. We will see.

Well I do to, at least Kier. I just dislike some things being put in an agreement which can be "abused" later by others, because then you don't ave anyting against it. But maybe that is worry for later, I experienced it already a couple of times (like with VB).
I also trust a person more then a big network.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I'm good, topic can be closed.

 

[Chris D]

Yes I think all has been said that needs to be said at this point.

We will keep the feedback given in mind and provide further clarity as needed. We do appreciate the feedback so far.