Mr Lucky
Well-known member
It included important new features such as GDPR cookie consent.
Xenforo has twice the market share of vBulletin
- Thread starter Stuart Wright
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D
Deleted member 745
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I've used many forum software suites over the years, and XF is still the best IMO... No idea though why they use USD and not GBP as there a British company not American?
Forsaken
Well-known member
Can't find the post, because it's from 10+ years ago, but think it is because USD is still the most widely used currency globally.
Alpha1
Well-known member
You are in the position where you can create the code that you need and have done so for XF1. Having time to do so is another factor. But there also are admins that are relying on essential XF1 addon functionality that is not available for XF2 and therefore are stuck on XF1. In this sense it is a factor of missing functionality. I agree with your point though: its not a matter of XF2 not being better than XF1. XF2 is better than XF1. And there also are many interesting addons or addon upgrades available for XF2, that offer new value. If I could upgrade, then I would.I doubt that. Sites that are still on XF1 vs. XF2 or vB3/vB4 vs vB5 has very little to do with them waiting for some super great feature before they pay for a year worth of upgrades. I'd say the vast majority of those sites are probably sitting on a ton of custom code that would need to be rewritten for the new version/framework (and no feature in XF 2.3 is going to solve that for them). I know firsthand because I'd love to pay for a year of upgrades and be able to click a button and all the custom code is magically rewritten for XF2. I have 2 sites that are still on XF1 because of that (one is at least XF 1.5, but the other is still on 1.4 because even getting it to 1.5 is a crazy amount of work).
There is a TON of great things XF 2.2 does when you compare it to 1.4 or 1.5. It's not an issue of "no features worth upgrading for".
Mendalla
Well-known member
Indeed. Anything that I am not paying in CAD is USD. Even some Canadian and all GB and EU companies I deal with bill me in USD. My writing competition awards are in USD and those sites are UK as well. That applies to work, my site, and life. And I like it that way. Means I have only one exchange rate to worry about when budgeting and planning.
sbj
Well-known member
I was looking at the stats again, and wanted to inform you that there seems to be a bug with the page. Like the page is loading and is finished loading. Then when I hover my mouse over the graph, it gets stuck and nothing moves in the graph. After a while it comes back but then again like when I keep moving my mouse over the graph, the whole page keeps flashing every 5 seconds or so like its reloading the page again and again.
Maybe it is an issue with my browser Firefox or adblocker.
Feature request, could we also get to see the absolute numbers and not just the relative share?
Like did the numbers of installations shrink by the time, or did they increase? Because it looks like the numbers for XF increased, like one would imagine they make more profits. But the graph is misleading since it only depicts the relative share. So in 2016 XF has had a marketshare of 37.5% and now in March it has 53.6%. But what if in 2016 XF had 10k installations and now it has 5k installations?
I am just curious about the whole market of forums. Where are we currently? Like in absolute numbers. Couldn't find on the web stats about it so I thought perhaps I ask about it here just in case if you find the time.
digitalpoint
Well-known member
Seems okay for me on both mobile and desktop machines. Didn’t try Firefox specifically, but if there’s something going on with Firefox, not sure there could be much I could do about it anyway (maybe an issue with the charting library and Firefox would be my guess). I don’t code multiple websites anymore for different browsers (no more IE thankfully).
As far as absolute numbers… people have asked before in the past and just not something that I care enough about to spend time on it. Knowing absolute numbers doesn’t make my life any better/worse or change anything, so it’s just not something I wanted to spend time on (I’m literally years behind on my own projects as it is).
As far as absolute numbers… people have asked before in the past and just not something that I care enough about to spend time on it. Knowing absolute numbers doesn’t make my life any better/worse or change anything, so it’s just not something I wanted to spend time on (I’m literally years behind on my own projects as it is).
digitalpoint
Well-known member
While I don't want to go digging for absolute numbers, it's not terribly difficult on my end to generate percentage gain/loss from month to month. So just to answer your question, this is what it sees year to year for XenForo (percentages are compared to the previous year, not since the beginning):
To summarize, it's never seen less sites using XenForo vs. the previous year, always more. Approx twice the sites using XenForo in 2023 vs. 2019.
Lower percentage gains per year is to be expected (that's normal business as there are more customers already in place). As an example, iPhone sales went from 11.6M to 20.7M between 2008 and 2009 (a gain of 78% vs the previous year). 2021 to 2022 was 242M and 232.2M units (a 4% loss year over year). For them to get back to 78% gain per year, they would need to sell 413.3M phones (181.1M more phones than previous year)... that same 78% gain only took 9.1M units earlier on. Different scale of course, but the principle is the same...
If you have 100 users early on, you only need to get 10 more customers to have 10% more than the previous year. when you have 100,000 users, you would need 10,000 more to match that 10% gain.
The opposite is true with vBulletin (no big surprise). Each year it sees less sites using vBulletin vs. the previous year.
| Year | Change vs. previous year |
|---|---|
| 2014 | 0% (baseline... first full year of data) |
| 2015 | +3% |
| 2016 | +23% |
| 2017 | +12% |
| 2018 | +11% |
| 2019 | +21% |
| 2020 | +47% |
| 2021 | +7% |
| 2022 | +2% |
| 2023 | +3% |
To summarize, it's never seen less sites using XenForo vs. the previous year, always more. Approx twice the sites using XenForo in 2023 vs. 2019.
Lower percentage gains per year is to be expected (that's normal business as there are more customers already in place). As an example, iPhone sales went from 11.6M to 20.7M between 2008 and 2009 (a gain of 78% vs the previous year). 2021 to 2022 was 242M and 232.2M units (a 4% loss year over year). For them to get back to 78% gain per year, they would need to sell 413.3M phones (181.1M more phones than previous year)... that same 78% gain only took 9.1M units earlier on. Different scale of course, but the principle is the same...
If you have 100 users early on, you only need to get 10 more customers to have 10% more than the previous year. when you have 100,000 users, you would need 10,000 more to match that 10% gain.
The opposite is true with vBulletin (no big surprise). Each year it sees less sites using vBulletin vs. the previous year.
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sbj
Well-known member
Thank you for taking the time as always. Much much appreciated.
I would have loved to see how big the whole pie is (meaning like how many installations are in the pool for all combined platforms XF, IPS, vB, etc.) and how big each part is. I am just curious if there is a decline or not with forums in general and relative numbers don't provide that information. But I don't want to push my luck here. Thank you.
The table looks like a GDP growth like you explained. Developed countries when lucky see a GDP increase of 1-3% if lucky and developing countries can go up to 20-30-40% since the base stat is so different. For example see below Germany, France, UK, Italy or Spain compared to the "East Block". Ireland seems to be an outlier here but I think this is because of their tax evasions strategy, so doesn't count because if all countries were a tax heaven in Europe, then the graph would look differently.
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sbj
Well-known member
I mean from the table alone one can't deduce one or the other. My guess is a lot of boards migrated in the last years to XF which is why XF's marketshare grew and which is why it never saw a decline relative to a previous year.
But, but, forums are dying ... apparently ...
The interesting question would be how many new licenses are sold each year which only XF could provide and then we could see if forums are dying or not but not even in my dreams XF would share that stat publicly.
So, only digitalpoint's tracker is our whole reliable source and getting absolute numbers is not possible right now, so who knows.
At least XF is doing fine. Just, please for the love of God hire more developers, please
. Thanks.
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digitalpoint
Well-known member
Judging from the percentage decline being larger than the percentage XenForo is gaining, I'd say it's safe to say that the cumulative number of sites as a whole running "forum" software is in fact going down. It's a lot harder to make a new forum from scratch that competes with social media these days (no surprise there).
That being said, XenForo has built a pretty unbelievable framework... Someday maybe they will pivot and think of themselves as software to run a site that happens to be able to also run a forum vs. forum software that happens to be able to run a site. Most of my XenForo sites have absolutely nothing to do with a forum:
https://rlqry.com/ - A secret society (used for handling applications, potential candidate invitations, management of events, etc.)
https://inmateintake.com/ - A tool to track inmates and some other stuff
https://outgress.com/ - A system where users forward emails automatically and it processes them and turns them into useful data (147M emails have been forwarded so far)
https://iolabs.io/ - A search engine spider that is literally dealing with billions of bits of new data every day.
I have 3 or 4 additional sites in the pipeline/works that also have nothing to do with forums, but use XenForo as a framework.
I've actually turned 15 or so companies on to XenForo purely as a framework for what they are doing (they have no interest in a forum), and guess what? They are now XenForo licensees that don't have a forum.
That being said, XenForo has built a pretty unbelievable framework... Someday maybe they will pivot and think of themselves as software to run a site that happens to be able to also run a forum vs. forum software that happens to be able to run a site. Most of my XenForo sites have absolutely nothing to do with a forum:
https://rlqry.com/ - A secret society (used for handling applications, potential candidate invitations, management of events, etc.)
https://inmateintake.com/ - A tool to track inmates and some other stuff
https://outgress.com/ - A system where users forward emails automatically and it processes them and turns them into useful data (147M emails have been forwarded so far)
https://iolabs.io/ - A search engine spider that is literally dealing with billions of bits of new data every day.
I have 3 or 4 additional sites in the pipeline/works that also have nothing to do with forums, but use XenForo as a framework.
I've actually turned 15 or so companies on to XenForo purely as a framework for what they are doing (they have no interest in a forum), and guess what? They are now XenForo licensees that don't have a forum.
sbj
Well-known member
That is also what I am guessing but to confirm it we need raw numbers ofc. I don't know, I already accepted the fate that we are in a sinking boat. I am just curious in about how deep we are, but knowing it or not won't change anything anyway. As one customer we can't steer the ship, just witness what's happening, it is not in our hands.
This is an interesting take. I know that in many occasions you and other devs praised the framework, especially since the re-write. But I thought you and your sites are exceptions. Like ofc you can turn this framework into something which has nothing to do with a forum yet use it as an engine to run other type of sites. But from what I understand now it is flexible enough for it not to be just an exception but with the right strategy the "forum software" could expand into other "software" territories. But I think we are already behind with current developments for the "forum" part that this kind of tackle will never happen since they don't have enough men I guess. But would have been interesting and maybe revitalize things, especially get back more devs into the eco-system.
digitalpoint
Well-known member
No, my sites aren't exceptions. Almost all sites use some sort of framework these days. They are endless and honestly most of them aren't that great either. But starting from something rather than nothing is better than nothing. Literally the only reason more sites don't use it purely as a framework is because no one knows how good it is for being a framework because XenForo just keeps telling people it's "forum software". Wrong!
If I was still developing accounting/business management software, I'd seriously consider building it on top of XenForo and just adding +$150 to the accounting software license to pay for a XenForo license for all my customers.
sbj
Well-known member
Maybe they are not, but you are
. You could build a website with just matchsticks probably. I mean we can send any framework, anything towards your direction and you could build upon that. So when you say sth. like that I am thinking in my head "is the framework really that good or is it because he is so good ". But from what you tell now it seems that the framework is that good (we normal humans don't get to realize that since we don't understand what is happening under the hood). Expanding the reputation of XF into other markets would be a win-win for all of us if it happened. Maybe that is exactly what we need to save the ship. To be honest I am game with any "innovation", anything "new", any new "direction". At least seeing something being tried on would suffice for me but we all know how slow it is these days so don't need to dream here . Thanks though, interesting take.
digitalpoint
Well-known member
It really is that good. I've seen enough frameworks that it's a valid opinion.
Yes, I can probably technically build things in other frameworks... in fact I about wanted to kill myself after building my Cloudflare add-on for WordPress. However, if you knew me in real life, I value efficiency over all else for anything. I don't build stuff on top of XenForo because it can technically be done.
Yes, I can probably technically build things in other frameworks... in fact I about wanted to kill myself after building my Cloudflare add-on for WordPress. However, if you knew me in real life, I value efficiency over all else for anything. I don't build stuff on top of XenForo because it can technically be done.
Alpha1
Well-known member
@digitalpoint does your tool also count all xfcloud instances seperately? Or differentiate between cloud and self hosted?
That would be interesting to see.
That would be interesting to see.
digitalpoint
Well-known member
It would count ones that are on unique domains, and sometimes (not always) if they were on subdomains. Subdomain instances would be counted if they got more than effectively zero traffic, but if they are on subdomains with zero traffic they probably aren’t going to be found.
Alpha1
Well-known member
Asides from original domains, XFCloud domains are here:
*.community.forum
See: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:.community.forum
@Brogan are there other subdomains or extensions exclusively used for XFC?
*.community.forum
See: https://www.google.com/search?q=site:.community.forum
@Brogan are there other subdomains or extensions exclusively used for XFC?