what are your thought on the crisis in Egypt this week?

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Of course not. The Mossad is no more a terrorist organization than the CIA. Sure, both perform wet works black ops, but they are sanctioned by the governments, the targets are never innocent civilans, missions are conducted to minimize collateral damage and the goal is the elimination of a specific target or targets of intelligence value, not simply to create fear.

There is NO moral equivalency with terrorist organizations blowing up discos, embassies, hotels, cruise ships, airplanes and other civilian targets just to inspire terror. That is the worst form of cowardice. PLO, Huzbola, Hamas, Al-Qaida, the Red Brigade and the IRA...cowards, the lot.

And the worst type of coward is the one who sends old men, women and children out with bombs strapped to them.
 
Quoting Fred:

On the contrary, it was not my intention to benign Muslim Brotherhood (Ihvan-i Müslimin) at all. But my facts are based on a more neutral view when compared to yours. An attempt to start a discussion about Hamas, Al-Qaida would drive us far away from the topic and would probably not end. However, I can’t pass this without saying a few words. How many people know that Hamas is a Palestinian party that collected the majority of the votes and controls Gaza, has its own police and government (some of them are in Israeli prisons)?

How about the Al-Qaida in Lebanon (Not to be mixed with the actual “Al- Qaida”)? They have elected representatives and majority in the cabinet. After the allegations of the assassination of Rafik Hariri the Al- Qaida supported ministers withdraw themselves from the government and there is a crisis now. Why I’m telling this? To tell you that in the eyes of their own people they are selected, legit! So who is calling whom terrorists? From the vantage point of Israel and its biggest ally the US, and together acting EU states yes it’s a terror organization as you are making Muslim Brotherhood one. I don’t recognize either Hamas or El-Qaida (Lebanon) as a terror organization.

Another fact is until today Egypt soldiers were working with the Hamas Police to insure safety of the Rafah. There are two million people and awaited to rise to four million after Mubarak denied an immediate resign. Saying that only the Muslim Brotherhood is the only group unsatisfied of Mubarak’s speech is also not true. Everybody knows it’s another way of saying Mubarak is preparing its own people to take over. No one can deny the Muslim Brotherhood is organizing and supporting the protests as they are well-organized and the biggest organization in Egypt. But that doesn’t make this a cry for an Islamic Regime. There are several other organizations part of the protests and millions of people.

It comes to the final conclusion whether the Muslim Brotherhood is a terror organization or not. For those who are intimidated from the Islamic Boogeymen the answer is simple. But the reality is not matching your perspective of reality as much as you like it to be. My morality is irrelevant, yesterday it was Mahatma Gandhi in India a state terrorist, until Sinn Fein IRA was an enemy to be destroyed and in no conditions to negotiate (we don’t negotiate with terrorists!) as well as ETA in Spain and in my motherland (Turkey) the PKK! Now they conveniently sitting together negotiating, everyone is laying their cards on the table to find a common sense because they have no other chance! These are the facts. In these facts my morality doesn’t play even the slightest role.

You have to decide between an evil, Nazi or Fundamentalist. Because a person who claims to rule according to Sharia wouldn’t indulge Hitler of for that matter National Socialism. Islam is a religion which doesn’t distinguish people of their race and has not a goal to wipe out Jews or any other race. I’m very curious whose book or articles you are basing your theory on. Because this isn’t consistent with basic elements of Islam. I’m a political science student, maybe there is a lot that I need to learn, but as far as the “articles” goes that have been posted on the internet they’re just about the same, writings that has no historical references and looks more fabricated, urban legend than the truth. Which brings me to the conclusion that unfortunately you don’t know much about Islam.

Israel is another proof that the size of your land doesn’t matter. Israel has a huge influence over the media, senate and the president not just in the states. What you call “isolation” we call good PR. Gaza is blocked from land and sea by Israel. They are building new residential units into the conflict zones without any regards to the international law and UN secretary. Hundreds of (over thousand) civilians were killed during the air strikes in Lebanon in 2006. We don’t label Israel as a state which exercise terror as a result of unproportional force but label Hamas as a terror organization for shooting Scud missiles into Israeli into residential zones. How convenient!

We learned from Anat Kam, who was sentenced to prison for revealing state secret to the press, that Israel was in possession of weapon of mass destruction. Not obeying UN regulations and not opening its facilities to IAEA. So when you reference to Kristallnacht, grand legitimacy to Israel defending itself with nuclear capability in some sort, it just verify the level of hypocrisy towards Iran. What legitimize Israel to possess nuclear weapons and Iran not? So I’d do the exact same thing. Having leverage by possessing the same technology and nuclear capability that my (his) enemy has. If the world wants Iran opening its facilities to IAEA and ensure not building nukes, start projecting the light first on Israel’s unlawful facilities and nuclear capabilities. This is not me talking. It’s the UN and IAEA itself complaining the lack of cooperation that they’re getting from Israel. Yet another unrelated topic and romantic approach.

And as you said so delicately, when you look for the bad guy you look from every possible angle as you would look in Iran, Al-Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas you look also look into Israel’s acts.
 
laztrix said:
Quoting Fred:

On the contrary, it was not my intention to benign Muslim Brotherhood (Ihvan-i Müslimin) at all. But my facts are based on a more neutral view when compared to yours. An attempt to start a discussion about Hamas, Al-Qaida would drive us far away from the topic and would probably not end. However, I can’t pass this without saying a few words. How many people know that Hamas is a Palestinian party that collected the majority of the votes and controls Gaza, has its own police and government (some of them are in Israeli prisons)?

How about the Al-Qaida in Lebanon (Not to be mixed with the actual “Al- Qaida”)? They have elected representatives and majority in the cabinet. After the allegations of the assassination of Rafik Hariri the Al- Qaida supported ministers withdraw themselves from the government and there is a crisis now. Why I’m telling this? To tell you that in the eyes of their own people they are selected, legit! So who is calling whom terrorists? From the vantage point of Israel and its biggest ally the US, and together acting EU states yes it’s a terror organization as you are making Muslim Brotherhood one. I don’t recognize either Hamas or El-Qaida (Lebanon) as a terror organization.

Another fact is until today Egypt soldiers were working with the Hamas Police to insure safety of the Rafah. There are two million people and awaited to rise to four million after Mubarak denied an immediate resign. Saying that only the Muslim Brotherhood is the only group unsatisfied of Mubarak’s speech is also not true. Everybody knows it’s another way of saying Mubarak is preparing its own people to take over. No one can deny the Muslim Brotherhood is organizing and supporting the protests as they are well-organized and the biggest organization in Egypt. But that doesn’t make this a cry for an Islamic Regime. There are several other organizations part of the protests and millions of people.

It comes to the final conclusion whether the Muslim Brotherhood is a terror organization or not. For those who are intimidated from the Islamic Boogeymen the answer is simple. But the reality is not matching your perspective of reality as much as you like it to be. My morality is irrelevant, yesterday it was Mahatma Gandhi in India a state terrorist, until Sinn Fein IRA was an enemy to be destroyed and in no conditions to negotiate (we don’t negotiate with terrorists!) as well as ETA in Spain and in my motherland (Turkey) the PKK! Now they conveniently sitting together negotiating, everyone is laying their cards on the table to find a common sense because they have no other chance! These are the facts. In these facts my morality doesn’t play even the slightest role.

You have to decide between an evil, Nazi or Fundamentalist. Because a person who claims to rule according to Sharia wouldn’t indulge Hitler of for that matter National Socialism. Islam is a religion which doesn’t distinguish people of their race and has not a goal to wipe out Jews or any other race. I’m very curious whose book or articles you are basing your theory on. Because this isn’t consistent with basic elements of Islam. I’m a political science student, maybe there is a lot that I need to learn, but as far as the “articles” goes that have been posted on the internet they’re just about the same, writings that has no historical references and looks more fabricated, urban legend than the truth. Which brings me to the conclusion that unfortunately you don’t know much about Islam.

Israel is another proof that the size of your land doesn’t matter. Israel has a huge influence over the media, senate and the president not just in the states. What you call “isolation” we call good PR. Gaza is blocked from land and sea by Israel. They are building new residential units into the conflict zones without any regards to the international law and UN secretary. Hundreds of (over thousand) civilians were killed during the air strikes in Lebanon in 2006. We don’t label Israel as a state which exercise terror as a result of unproportional force but label Hamas as a terror organization for shooting Scud missiles into Israeli into residential zones. How convenient!

We learned from Anat Kam, who was sentenced to prison for revealing state secret to the press, that Israel was in possession of weapon of mass destruction. Not obeying UN regulations and not opening its facilities to IAEA. So when you reference to Kristallnacht, grand legitimacy to Israel defending itself with nuclear capability in some sort, it just verify the level of hypocrisy towards Iran. What legitimize Israel to possess nuclear weapons and Iran not? So I’d do the exact same thing. Having leverage by possessing the same technology and nuclear capability that my (his) enemy has. If the world wants Iran opening its facilities to IAEA and ensure not building nukes, start projecting the light first on Israel’s unlawful facilities and nuclear capabilities. This is not me talking. It’s the UN and IAEA itself complaining the lack of cooperation that they’re getting from Israel. Yet another unrelated topic and romantic approach.

And as you said so delicately, when you look for the bad guy you look from every possible angle as you would look in Iran, Al-Qaida, Hezbollah, Hamas you look also look into Israel’s acts.
Click to expand...

I believe you've managed to do a few important things here. First and foremost, you've exposed yourself for what you are and that alone is reason enough for me to end this exchange. Second, you've presented "facts" that anyone who hasn't been in a cave for 15 years can see through, losing all credibility. And finally, you display the typical argument of equivalency between Israel and Iran, even though Israel doesn't sponsor terrorism around the world or give it safe harbor.

I feel like the stereotypical television lawyer who keeps at the witness until they get angry and jump into a guilt-admitting diatribe. I thank you for your time, but we are done. For some reason, I feel the need to shower now.
 
Fred Sherman said:
I believe you've managed to do a few important things here. First and foremost, you've exposed yourself for what you are and that alone is reason enough for me to end this exchange. Second, you've presented "facts" that anyone who hasn't been in a cave for 15 years can see through, losing all credibility. And finally, you display the typical argument of equivalency between Israel and Iran, even though Israel doesn't sponsor terrorism around the world or give it safe harbor.

I thank you for your time, but we are done.
Click to expand...

It's my mistake to even make an effort trying to establish a democratic argument without being labeled as a terrorist sympathizer. Because eventually when it comes to the final words you always seem to have the right answer whether it's right or wrong. I said a lot of things that are arguable, as it's not science like you argued. Underlining sentences you don't like and then make up your mind based on those just shows how thick your skull is. This Cavemen strategy of yours maybe works for those like you but not to me.


As far as "done" goes, I'm even open to the most ridiculous theories. But having you have your eyes and ears closed and intolerant to the opposite thought there is no much meaning to talk to you, there I agree.
Go ahead and select some more sentences of your liking, I’m sure you will find some more.
 
Ut oh, looks like this thread is beginning to go south. I'm actually surprised that it stayed civil for as long as it has, but IMO, it's run its course.
 
Peggy said:
Looks like this thread is beginning to go south. I'm actually surprised that it stayed civil for as long as it has, but IMO, it's run its course.
Click to expand...

Peggy I hate it when people are deliberately trying to push my buttons and being accused to be someone I'm not just makes me go bananas. I'm sorry if I'm upsetting anyone to be seen so aggressive.
 
laztrix said:
Peggy I hate it when people are deliberately trying to push my buttons and being accused to be someone I'm not just makes me go bananas. I'm sorry if I'm upsetting anyone to be seen so aggressive.
Click to expand...
Understood. I just think the thread needs closing before it gets any worse. :)
 
John said:
Short answer? No, not at all.
Click to expand...
when would u publish the long answer ...
smile.png
 
Fred Sherman said:
Of course not. The Mossad is no more a terrorist organization than the CIA. Sure, both perform wet works black ops, but they are sanctioned by the governments, the targets are never innocent civilans, missions are conducted to minimize collateral damage and the goal is the elimination of a specific target or targets of intelligence value, not simply to create fear.

There is NO moral equivalency with terrorist organizations blowing up discos, embassies, hotels, cruise ships, airplanes and other civilian targets just to inspire terror. That is the worst form of cowardice. PLO, Huzbola, Hamas, Al-Qaida, the Red Brigade and the IRA...cowards, the lot.

And the worst type of coward is the one who sends old men, women and children out with bombs strapped to them.
Click to expand...
How about killing people without going to trail or court ? How come the Mossade have the right to kill but not Hamas
I know that they both wrong . That no body in the world (people or institution) have the right to kill random human being without proven guilty front of legitimate court
why would you agree and defend the Mossad and not Hamas ? I simply don't understand ...
 
I Think its great for everyone of us to share their political side especially for a dev. community
I also believe that everyone in here are taking this thread to seriously ... free your minds and try to understand other people views instead of going against them without learning new ideas
 
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