vb5 beta released, and...

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Sador said:
While I have no desire to look it up, I'm fairly sure Kier stated somewhere that vB 3.6 was the last vBulletin version without IB meddling, and everything after that they started deciding a lot of stuff about it, and the devs were no longer in charge.

Also, this thread makes me smile a little sadly.
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No. Again, in Kier's deposition, it was James that meddled in 3.7 and 3.8, not IB:

Kier's deposition said:
15. After the release of vBulletin 3.6 in 2006, Jelsoft was focused on the development of two add-on products for vBulletin (“Blog” and “Project Tools”). During this period, Limm suddenly informed me that he wanted to add “social networking” features to vBulletin as soon as possible. This was the first time that Limm had ever instructed the development team to follow a specific development path. I told Limm that development of these features would delay the start of work on vBulletin 4, but he was insistent that the social networking features must be developed immediately. Limm’s requirements for the features kept expanding, and the aging vBulletin 3 architecture hampered the development process. Eventually, we decided that the new features could only be achieved with a new vBulletin version, and as a result we began working on vBulletin 3.7.
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So the dev team itself had always been in charge of the development plan up through 3.6. Then with 3.7 and 3.8 James took over planning. Kier always intended that 3.6 would be the last version in the vB3 series:

Kier's deposition said:
12. With considerable input from the development team, I decided that 3.6 would be the final version to use the old code, and that the next major release of vBulletin (“vBulletin 4”) would consist of all new code, employing new “object oriented” programming techniques that had only become available to PHP after vBulletin 3 was released. I understood that this change would allow for faster, more robust future development. We estimated that vBulletin 4 would require approximately two years of design and development work before commercial release. We referred to vBulletin 4 as a “rewrite”, as we intended to implement all of the existing vBulletin 3 features using brand new code.
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So again you are blaming IB when you should be blaming James. Kier was in charge of development planning up through 3.6. Then James took over planning for 3.7 and 3.8, two versions which Kier never wanted to release because he wanted to work on a rewrite for vB4. IB didn't take over development until vB4, and that was only after James lied to them about the status of vB4. So again, you are blaming IB for the doing of James. 3.7 and 3.8 were all James. And while James told IB they were working on vB4, James was actually having the devs work on 3.7 and 3.8, two versions which neither IB nor the devs wanted. So again, James was in the middle of all of this. It's not IB's fault.
 
So that makes me wonder why IB didnt sue James.. Something seems off. I just cant put my finger on it.. I mean its obvious IB likes to Sue people.. Seems James would have made the top of that list. I know i know, Email James or IB..
 
VonDoom said:
How many hundreds or thousands of concurrent users do you have at any given time? I suspect you dont have a big board running vb4 Suite. Or maybe you do and know how to fix all vB default faults.
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I'll repeat what I said verbatim.
The latest version of the vB4 suite is working pretty well for me.
 
stewart1champ said:
Strange, the California Case Update had good information in it pertaining to XenForo, its closed. This thread is just to make fun of vB5, and it is still open... :confused:
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The lawsuit thread was closed temporarily pending new information about the case. That is because many people look to that thread for real information about the case. Many people watch that thread and receive email notifications, expecting to receive real updates. So I locked it until there are real updates.
 
Jake Bunce said:
The lawsuit thread was closed temporarily pending new information about the case. That is because many people look to that thread for real information about the case. Many people watch that thread and receive email notifications, expecting to receive real updates. So I locked it until there are real updates.
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Not to go off topic and I apologize for this, but if it's locked, how will you know when Shamil has something new to add?
 
Jake Bunce said:
The lawsuit thread was closed temporarily pending new information about the case. That is because many people look to that thread for real information about the case. Many people watch that thread and receive email notifications, expecting to receive real updates. So I locked it until there are real updates.
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I'm not a moderator Jake, but in all honesty this thread really doesn't serve much of a purpose but to bad-mouth vBulletin. I don't quite understand the need to keep this open anymore. If people have issues with the software (vBulletin) then they should take it up on their forums. Not sure it's good business practice to let people bad-mouth your competition to this extent on your own forums.
 
Azhria Lilu said:
I was just clarifying that vB4 wasn't sold during the beta stage - you got the beta version for free on your vb3 licence :) whereas vB5 is being sold during beta testing - which may be why there are less mods coming out at the moment.
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You are correct vBulletin 4 wasn't sold during the beta stage. It was actually sold BEFORE the beta stage and public unveiling.
 
steven s said:
I'll repeat what I said verbatim.
The latest version of the vB4 suite is working pretty well for me.
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vBulletin 4 may work for you, but it most certainly does not work for me. vBulletin 4 was consistently had too many chefs ruining the the dishes coming out of the kitchen. There was too much over promising and under delivering.
 
Jake Bunce said:
No. Again, in Kier's deposition, it was James that meddled in 3.7 and 3.8, not IB:



So the dev team itself had always been in charge of the development plan up through 3.6. Then with 3.7 and 3.8 James took over planning. Kier always intended that 3.6 would be the last version in the vB3 series:



So again you are blaming IB when you should be blaming James. Kier was in charge of development planning up through 3.6. Then James took over planning for 3.7 and 3.8, two versions which Kier never wanted to release because he wanted to work on a rewrite for vB4. IB didn't take over development until vB4, and that was only after James lied to them about the status of vB4. So again, you are blaming IB for the doing of James. 3.7 and 3.8 were all James. And while James told IB they were working on vB4, James was actually having the devs work on 3.7 and 3.8, two versions which neither IB nor the devs wanted. So again, James was in the middle of all of this. It's not IB's fault.
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I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm merely stating I remember Kier writing something on the forums. I might of course be wrong.
 
Vbulletin 4, in my opinion, is..."ok", but it's still pretty far from the quality I've come to expect from the Vbulletin brand name

Sadly, that level of quality will never be seen again, unless the brand is sold to a decent company.

The fact VB5 has been released for sale, in an alpha state and the fact it's classed as "beta", says it all really.

They either haven't learnt from the mistakes of the past, or they simply don't care for putting out quality products, sadly, it's probably more of the latter.
 
VonDoom said:
So that makes me wonder why IB didnt sue James.. Something seems off. I just cant put my finger on it.. I mean its obvious IB likes to Sue people.. Seems James would have made the top of that list. I know i know, Email James or IB..
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I dunno. Maybe there is a good reason. I mean, technically it was IB's fault that they trusted James. According to Kier's deposition IB failed to oversee their new acquisition initially because they were preparing for their IPO:

Kier's deposition said:
36. Before returning to England, I had an informal and cordial meeting with Brisco, Rundell and Morgan in Brisco’s office. During that meeting, Brisco and Rundell thanked me for travelling to California and participating in valuable and productive meetings. I asked them why they had previously believed that Jelsoft would be ready to deliver the vBulletin 4 “rewrite” in late 2008. Brisco and Rundell told me that that there had been a series of miscommunications between Internet Brands and James Limm. I was also told that Internet Brands’ lack of involvement with Jelsoft before the acquisition and for a full year after the acquisition occurred in June 2007 was due to Internet Brands’ management’s focus on preparing for a public offering of common stock in Internet Brands.
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So that's IB's fault in a way. But it sort of makes sense that IB would take it out on the devs since the devs are the ones who will ultimately deliver the product, a product which IB needed urgently for their IPO:

Kier's deposition said:
29. When we arrived in Los Angeles on the afternoon of September 3rd 2008, we met Brisco, who was was cold and sharply criticized our development pace as “glacial.” He said that he had already informed Internet Brands’ shareholders that vBulletin 4 would be ready very soon, and, therefore, Internet Brands in Los Angeles would assume direct control over the vBulletin development process to ensure the delivery of vBulletin 4 by March 2009. To meet this accelerated schedule, Brisco proposed outsourcing all development to China and transforming Jelsoft’s development staff from code developers to code reviewers of work by Chinese software writers.
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How else are you going to "encourage" the timely release of vB4 other than to lay into the devs who will produce it? Certainly IB is not going to delegate to James at that point since he lied to them about vB4. So IB had no choice but to directly manage development. IB's problem at that point was that they needed vB4 quickly which was impossible without compromising on the product, which they did.

So IB didn't really have a choice but to lay into the devs. Unfortunately the devs took the heat for James. And then, to answer your question as to why IB didn't sue James... I suspect it became personal, as most arguments do. IB was forced to lay into the devs which set the stage. Everything from that point on was about the devs. And of course when the devs quit and launched a competing product it really pissed off IB. Why wouldn't IB feel somewhat entitled to XenForo given all the crap they had to endure with vB4? Consider also that XenForo was in a way the rewrite that vB4 was supposed to be, the software that they were promised. IB has all of the history and personal motivation needed to sue XenForo which helps to explain the "why." This lawsuit is clearly very personal in nature.
 
steven s said:
Good bye now that the inmates are running the asylum.
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Fair enough its certain you need a good amount of thick skin to hang here these days. Sad you were driven out by a simple question regarding the size of your vb4 site in relation to its performance.
 
Jake Bunce said:
This lawsuit is clearly very personal in nature.
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Possibly, but there have been several staff members of vB / IB that said goodbye when and congratulated Kier and Mike on their new software (Adrian comes to mind). It might not have been that personal, in that case?
 
Jake Bunce said:
I dunno. Maybe there is a good reason. I mean, technically it was IB's fault that they trusted James. According to Kier's deposition IB failed to oversee their new acquisition initially because they were preparing for their IPO:



So that's IB's fault in a way. But it sort of makes sense that IB would take it out on the devs since the devs are the ones who will ultimately deliver the product, a product which IB needed urgently for their IPO:



How else are you going to "encourage" the timely release of vB4 other than to lay into the devs who will produce it? Certainly IB is not going to delegate to James at that point since he lied to them about vB4. So IB had no choice but to directly manage development. IB's problem at that point was that they needed vB4 quickly which was impossible without compromising on the product, which they did.

So IB didn't really have a choice but to lay into the devs. Unfortunately the devs took the heat for James. And then, to answer your question as to why IB didn't sue James... I suspect it became personal, as most arguments do. IB was forced to lay into the devs which set the stage. Everything from that point on was about the devs. And of course when the devs quit and launched a competing product it really pissed off IB. Why wouldn't IB feel somewhat entitled to XenForo given all the crap they had to endure with vB4? Consider also that XenForo was in a way the rewrite that vB4 was supposed to be, the software that they were promised. IB has all of the history and personal motivation needed to sue XenForo which helps to explain the "why." This lawsuit is clearly very personal in nature.
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Very interesting.. Kind of cool to have an insider (of sorts) prospective...
 
Sador said:
Possibly, but there have been several staff members of vB / IB that said goodbye when and congratulated Kier and Mike on their new software (Adrian comes to mind). It might not have been that personal, in that case?
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It was probably a personal grudge from a certain person at the top.
 
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