The Demise of the United States is Inevitable
- Thread starter Fred Sherman
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Fred Sherman
Well-known member
If you mean no blame, I agree. Look at the history of raising the debt ceiling. Prior to this last election, it happens quietly and automatically. This was the first time that raising the limit got tied to cutting spending. S&P was looking for $4 trillion is real cuts. They've already said the $2.7 trillion in this latest agreement was mostly gimmicks, not real cuts.
Without the Tea Party, there would have been an automatic increase and no cuts, just like in the past, and every agency, not just S&P, would have cut the credit rating. If there is any hope of restoring fiscal sanity to the US, it lies with the Tea Party.
Circle this day and remember you heard it here first. When the Tea Party grows from a purely ideological right wing phenomena into a non-partisan movement to overhaul the entire financial structure of the US into something sustainable, then we'll have a chance.
Here's the thing to remember. All over the US, people of every political persuasion - left, center, right; atheist & religious; all colors; poor to rich - the all balance their checkbooks. Its not out of ideology, but out of a function of fiscal reality.
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
I just found it amusing that this morning, Tuesday here in Australia when writing this, we obviously endured the backlash prior to the US opening, and our Monday markets closed nearly 3% down at close Monday in anticipation. Whilst I thought the US would plummet the same, I near fell out of bed this morning when I heard the market plummeted 20% at one point, and closed at 5% down.
Maybe the US had best be putting more serious thought into disbanding some of that 20% of its budget for military funding and stop being the worlds bully!!! Turn that money inwards and do some good for the citizens and country as a whole, because there is a decade long, if not longer, struggle for the US to recover from this position it has brought upon itself.
The poor Joe Blow citizen though suffers as a result of others greed and stupidity.
Maybe the US had best be putting more serious thought into disbanding some of that 20% of its budget for military funding and stop being the worlds bully!!! Turn that money inwards and do some good for the citizens and country as a whole, because there is a decade long, if not longer, struggle for the US to recover from this position it has brought upon itself.
The poor Joe Blow citizen though suffers as a result of others greed and stupidity.
erich37
Well-known member
which market plummeted 20% ? Not heard about that...... yet.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Funny thing about that "world's bully" thing...
We also seem to be the first nation the world turns to for humanitarian relief too because of that same military. Lets recount...
When the earthquake hit Japan, [U.S. Navy disaster-response operations were centered on the USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group, including more than seven ships that took up positions off of the northeastern coast of Japan's main island.
On the evening of January 12, 2010, a devastating 7.0 magnitude earthquake struck Haiti, destroying vast areas of the nation’s capital, killing an estimated 230,000 persons, leaving many thousands trapped in the wreckage, and over two million without shelter.
At dawn on January 13, under the direction of SOUTHCOM, elements of the Department of Defense arrived to provide assistance to the Government of Haiti and the United States Embassy. That day, the 1st Special Operations Wing (of which I was once a member) arrived and reopened Toussaint Louverture International Airport, while the United States Coast Guard Higgins and United States military aircraft began delivering relief supplies and evacuating American citizens.
The Department of Defense also ordered USS Carl Vinson, USS Bataan, USS Nassau, and USS Carter Hall to Haiti. Recognizing the need to establish a command and control element for the rapidly growing force, SOUTHCOM established Headquarters, Joint Task Force - Haiti on January 14 to conduct Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief operations in support of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), the lead U.S. agency, and Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs), in order to mitigate suffering and save lives. On January 19, SOUTHCOM established the Joint Logistics Command-Haiti.
On January 20 the hospital ship USNS Comfort dropped anchor and joined the relief efforts. Comfort came equipped with surgical operating teams and orthopedic surgeons capable. By January 22, the U.S. military had a total of 13,657 personnel in the Haiti Joint Operational Area: 3,258 ashore, 10,399 afloat. On Monday, January 25, 24th MEU began distributing humanitarian assistance items and pushing medical assistance into areas northwest of the capital. The 2nd Brigade 82nd Airborne helped support multiple interagency humanitarian aid distribution missions. By the end of January, JTF-Haiti controlled over 22,200 people both on the ground and off shore. Sixteen different distribution sites were established, U.S. forces were providing food and water, while continuing to provide available medical care to Haitians in need.
And don't forget Operation Unified Assistance, the military operation to provide assistance after the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami which included Carrier Strike Group Nine, led by the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.
More? In 2002, the US military came to the aid of.. the US - after Hurricane Katrina. While the world watched, we pulled ourselves up using our own 20% of GDP bootstraps. If a damned good thing we don't expect the rest of the world to do the same. Such bullies are we.
In 1998, the US military responded to Hurricanes Mitch and Georges. In fact, these two events led to an extensive study that set the groundwork for US disaster relief efforts that followed. You can read the report here: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA389097
We can keep marching back in time from disaster to disaster.
I have my own personal connection to this. On December 7, 1988, at 11:41 a.m. local time a magnitude 6.9 earthquake shook northwestern Armenia and was followed four minutes later by a magnitude 5.8 aftershock. Swarms ofaftershocks, some as large as magnitude 5.0, continued for months in the area around Spitak. The earthquakes hit an area 80 km in diameter comprising the towns of Leninakan, Spitak, Stepanavan, and Kirovakan in the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic. Within 24 hours, our C-141 landed at the Yerevan Airport, which we secured, repaired and returned to an active airport.
You have to understand the climate then. I was on the soil of our sworn enemy, the Soviet Union, a country that I had already been trained for several years to engage in combat. And here i was, delivering medical supplies and paving the way for future flights by C-5s, C-141, and C-130s.
Thats the kind of bullies we are. You should be damned glad we spend that 20% on our military.
Just curious, given you mention your location, but were you for turning our bullying C-17s away from relief efforts in Brisbane this past January?
We also seem to be the first nation the world turns to for humanitarian relief too because of that same military. Lets recount...
When the earthquake hit Japan, [U.S. Navy disaster-response operations were centered on the USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group, including more than seven ships that took up positions off of the northeastern coast of Japan's main island.
On the evening of January 12, 2010, a devastating 7.0 magnitude earthquake struck Haiti, destroying vast areas of the nation’s capital, killing an estimated 230,000 persons, leaving many thousands trapped in the wreckage, and over two million without shelter.
At dawn on January 13, under the direction of SOUTHCOM, elements of the Department of Defense arrived to provide assistance to the Government of Haiti and the United States Embassy. That day, the 1st Special Operations Wing (of which I was once a member) arrived and reopened Toussaint Louverture International Airport, while the United States Coast Guard Higgins and United States military aircraft began delivering relief supplies and evacuating American citizens.
The Department of Defense also ordered USS Carl Vinson, USS Bataan, USS Nassau, and USS Carter Hall to Haiti. Recognizing the need to establish a command and control element for the rapidly growing force, SOUTHCOM established Headquarters, Joint Task Force - Haiti on January 14 to conduct Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief operations in support of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), the lead U.S. agency, and Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs), in order to mitigate suffering and save lives. On January 19, SOUTHCOM established the Joint Logistics Command-Haiti.
On January 20 the hospital ship USNS Comfort dropped anchor and joined the relief efforts. Comfort came equipped with surgical operating teams and orthopedic surgeons capable. By January 22, the U.S. military had a total of 13,657 personnel in the Haiti Joint Operational Area: 3,258 ashore, 10,399 afloat. On Monday, January 25, 24th MEU began distributing humanitarian assistance items and pushing medical assistance into areas northwest of the capital. The 2nd Brigade 82nd Airborne helped support multiple interagency humanitarian aid distribution missions. By the end of January, JTF-Haiti controlled over 22,200 people both on the ground and off shore. Sixteen different distribution sites were established, U.S. forces were providing food and water, while continuing to provide available medical care to Haitians in need.
And don't forget Operation Unified Assistance, the military operation to provide assistance after the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami which included Carrier Strike Group Nine, led by the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.
More? In 2002, the US military came to the aid of.. the US - after Hurricane Katrina. While the world watched, we pulled ourselves up using our own 20% of GDP bootstraps. If a damned good thing we don't expect the rest of the world to do the same. Such bullies are we.
In 1998, the US military responded to Hurricanes Mitch and Georges. In fact, these two events led to an extensive study that set the groundwork for US disaster relief efforts that followed. You can read the report here: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA389097
We can keep marching back in time from disaster to disaster.
I have my own personal connection to this. On December 7, 1988, at 11:41 a.m. local time a magnitude 6.9 earthquake shook northwestern Armenia and was followed four minutes later by a magnitude 5.8 aftershock. Swarms ofaftershocks, some as large as magnitude 5.0, continued for months in the area around Spitak. The earthquakes hit an area 80 km in diameter comprising the towns of Leninakan, Spitak, Stepanavan, and Kirovakan in the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic. Within 24 hours, our C-141 landed at the Yerevan Airport, which we secured, repaired and returned to an active airport.
You have to understand the climate then. I was on the soil of our sworn enemy, the Soviet Union, a country that I had already been trained for several years to engage in combat. And here i was, delivering medical supplies and paving the way for future flights by C-5s, C-141, and C-130s.
Thats the kind of bullies we are. You should be damned glad we spend that 20% on our military.
Just curious, given you mention your location, but were you for turning our bullying C-17s away from relief efforts in Brisbane this past January?
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
I think the Tea Party represents a radicalization, not sanity.
At the very heart of the matter, they advocate for no new taxes which is exactly the opposite of what is needed.
Sure, nothing wrong with reducing spending where possible.
America needs a government that works. I have seen nothing about the Tea Party that tells me they are a part of the solution. In fact, many feel just the opposite.
If the Future of America is the Tea Party - then the demise may be inevitable.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Good point. The world does turn to America for humanitarian relief. America should increase the number of peacekeepers dramatically while reducing the number of soldiers.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
US President Barack Obama vowed that America would always be a "triple A country," fiercely defending US credit after a historic debt downgrade and saying the economy could be fixed with political will.
+1 - It is obvious what needs to get done to the deficit /debt on track.
+1 - It is a political will issue.
I bet the S & P would restore the AAA rating if the .gov followed my increase tax levels to year 2000 plan.
It would add 660 Billion in revenue.
Obama should address the Nation more than he does. I'm not sure why he lurks in the shadows and hopes the Congress and the Senate can work things out themselves.
+1 - It is obvious what needs to get done to the deficit /debt on track.
+1 - It is a political will issue.
I bet the S & P would restore the AAA rating if the .gov followed my increase tax levels to year 2000 plan.
It would add 660 Billion in revenue.
Obama should address the Nation more than he does. I'm not sure why he lurks in the shadows and hopes the Congress and the Senate can work things out themselves.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Okay, I've kind of been egging this thread on a bit because its been fun. But I will step outside that for this response.
I've been deployed to every contentent on earth except Antarctica. Missed out on a trip to McMurdo. I've been peacekeeper, aid bringer, defender, liberator and aggressor. I was part of operations that made the highly news and some that will never see the light of day. I've seen life and death juxtaposed in ways that makes life far more valuable and death far more poignant. I've shred my blood, and been covered in the blood of others - friends, enemies and innocents. I've killed and nearly been killed. I've held others in my arms as the light left their eyes and I was held when I lost conscious and nearly died myself. I haven't had a week in the last 27 years where I didn't wake up at least once screaming, transported back to a place or time better forgotten.
So I feel qualified to tell you that no one values peace more than a soldier, sailor, airman or marine. No one hates war more than those who have stared into it and seen the vile ugliness that hides within the human animal. But it is the nature of those who have power but do not suffer the consequences of it to wage war. Because of that, peace cannot come from being defenseless. That is the path to subjugation, slavery and death. Peace comes from the strength to deter the aggressor from aggression and the willingness to sacrifice yourself for something greater.
It was a life of service and sacrifice, not just for me, but my entire family. I was recalled for deployment three days into my week of leave for my honeymoon. My wife was 18 years old (we were young, but we are still together!) when I left her, not knowing where I was going or when I would be back (3 months later, as it turned out).
I left her again when she was 8 1/2 months pregnant with out second child. I was gone for 19 months and damned near didn't make it back from that one. Imagine how she felt when I was in an ICU in Germany for 3 weeks. With two young children, she couldn't even be with me during the time my life hung in the balance.
The soldier IS the peacekeeper. The strength to deter is also the strength to defend, protect, save and secure. George Orwell famously observed, "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." There is truth to that. But I would change it to:
We sleep safe in our beds because dedicated men and women stand vigil against all that would do us harm.
That to me is much closer to the truth. It need no be an enemy. If might be a tsunami, a hurricane, an earthquake or a flood. it might be an invading army or merely the threat of tyranny.
So tonight, before you close your eyes and fall asleep, say a quick prayer for all the men and women in uniform.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Awesome story Fred.
Thanks for your Service & Sacrifice.
Thanks for your Service & Sacrifice.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
In all seriousness, its because he has no leadership skills at all. Partisan? No, not one bit. An honest assessment by someone who spent much of their adult life leading and being led.
I abhor Nancy Pelosi's politics, but she is a true leader. She's a far better leader than Obama or Reid. Hillary Clinton is a better leader than Obama, but not nearly as much so as Pelosi. How about another strong democrat leader? Chuck Schumer. Anyone who knows anything about Chucky knows he wouldn't have kept quiet during the budget debate.
Obama was a community organizer. Thats not a leader, that a manager. Its a valuable skill in its own right, but its not a substitute for leadership. Ever seen the movie, Heartbreak Ridge? Major Powers was a manager; Gunny Highway was a leader.
So for the Dems among us...
If you could go back and undo the last election, having see the lack of leadership and vision, would you rather take a chance on Hillary Clinton, Dennis Kucinich, or Tom Daschle?
I think we'd be in a far different position today if you had.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
It's hard to argue ! During the election he could "Talk the Talk" but now he can't Talk or Walk
.
EQnoble
Well-known member
Hoo-Rah and thank you Sir. Glad your more like a timex than a rolex.
aculate
Well-known member
by catching up, i mean economically, in education, science development, space exploration, military, etc... Obviously, it doesn't benefit the country that is beeing 'catched up'...
Dont' get me wrong, i wish the USA remains the leader in all the domains, but I was simlpy stating what i believe is an obvious fact, for me , anyways...
The balance was a metaphor for what is my perception on what's going on in the world. Just like a balance: when one side goes up, the other goes down... hopefully it doesn't go down too much or to fast...
jasetaro
Well-known member
Funny thing about that, we could say the same thing about liberals... after all the percentage of the population that self-identifies as liberal is about the same as does for the tea party:
One could argue that both groups represent the radical fringe of American politics. The majority of American's self-identify as either conservative (41%) or independent (36%).
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Of course they're radical. Hugo Grotius, John Locke, and Jean Jacques Rousseau were considered radicals in arguing for the natural rights of individuals and the idea that government was a social contract between the governed and the government and that the government is only legitimate so long as it enjoys the consent of the governed.
Our Founding Fathers were radicals, casting off the idea of the Divine Right of Kings, forming a government based on the principles of Locke and Rousseau.
And I think you're missing the point on taxes. They aren't the answer. When an alcoholic can no longer get drunk on a quart, the answer isn't to give him a gallon. Our government is addicted to spending. The answer isn't to give them more money - not yet. The answer is to cut spending.
And while we're at it, the 46% of households that pay no taxes need to put some skin in the game. Because what that tells me is that taxes aren't for paying for essential government services, its for socialist income redistribution. You want "shared sacrifice"? How about showing me that in practice instead of as a clever marketing slogan.
Lets try this...
Here are the tax brackets:
If your taxable income is between...
your tax bracket is:
0 and 8,500
10 %
8,500 and 34,500
15 %
34,500 and 83,600
25 %
83,600 and 174,400
28 %
174,400 and 379,150
33 %
379,150 and above
35 %
Lets change it to this:
If your taxable income is between...
your tax bracket is:
8,500 and 34,500
5 %
34,500 and 83,600
15 %
83,600 and 174,400
18 %
174,400 and 379,150
23 %
379,150 and above
25 %
Go through your income tax forms as usual. All of the same laws and deductions apply. But there is one last line:
If your gross income is greater than...
your minimum tax is:
0
10 %
No deductions, standard or otherwise are applied to your minimum tax. Your owed taxes are your minimum tax + your itemized tax.
That is an example of a tax increaser that the Tea Party would support provided that Congress also curtails spending. And the only way to to that is with a Balanced Budget Amendment.
There are a lot more potential solutions that giving the winos in Washington another 3 quarts. And the only reason we're discussing them is because of radicals once more asserting the rights of the governed over the government. Thank goodness for radicals like that.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Amazing. Here is the difference between the left and right in a nutshell when it comes to jobs.
"Every time we add private sector jobs, we're losing state and local jobs." (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...vate_sector_jobs_were_losing_public_jobs.html)
Newsflash for you, Dionne - THAT IS A GOOD THING!
Private sector jobs create wealth and increase the GDP. Public sector jobs are paid for by the government, in other words, by taxes. Workfare vs. Welfare, get it?
No wonder the Washington Post is a liberal rag.
"Every time we add private sector jobs, we're losing state and local jobs." (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...vate_sector_jobs_were_losing_public_jobs.html)
Newsflash for you, Dionne - THAT IS A GOOD THING!
Private sector jobs create wealth and increase the GDP. Public sector jobs are paid for by the government, in other words, by taxes. Workfare vs. Welfare, get it?
No wonder the Washington Post is a liberal rag.
Luke B
Active member
Exactly! This guy is so detached from the real world (like most of these guys are) its baffling to me.
jadmperry
Well-known member
Fred,
I don't think this means what you think it means....I think he is just saying that overall, the most pressing issue is unemployment and that the numbers are remaining low because what is happening is that when there is an increase in private sector jobs, you are seeing a decrease in government jobs, which means no substantial net increase in jobs overall. I think he is commenting on what is happening, not discussing the merits of government vs. private sector jobs....at least that was my sense on listening to what he said at 1:45 of the video. If his point is that real growth is dependent on jobs, I think he is right...2/3rd of our GDP is based on consumer purchases. No jobs, no money, equals no purchases...and stagnant growth or recession. I think this is right. The disagreement appears to be what is the best way to get there.
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