The Demise of the United States is Inevitable

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S&P : From AAA to AA+
"The United States' credit rating was cut for the first time when Standard and Poor's lowered it from triple-A to AA+, citing the country's looming deficit burden and weak policy-making process.
Standard and Poor's on Friday revised the nation's rating downwards to a AA+ with a negative outlook, despite a push back from the White House, which said its analysis of the US economy was deeply flawed.
It was the first time the US was downgraded since it first received a triple-AAA rating from Moody's in 1917; it has held the S&P rating since 1941.
Moody's and a third ratings agency, Fitch, say they continue to study the deficit plan to see if the US merits being kept in their ranks of AAA countries."
 
Well, there is a Social Security Trust Fund of 2.6 trillion dollars. The trouble is it's invested in U.S. treasury bills! So Social Security has our "I.O.U."! So, if I take out a loan against my savings, do I still have savings? Technically I do.
 
What isn't helping the EuroZone countries though, is the Euro. Its becoming apparent that a single currency is just too inflexible when countries get into these situations. What Greece would have been able to do with the Drachma is to devalue it in the current circumstances, but of course it can't do that.
There's another virtually criminal single currency whose existence is unsustainable. It's called the US dollar.

Unfortunately, the system has reached the point where no amount of political ideology or fear mongering can rescue the situation. There will be a calamitous crash, and the result will be profound. Democrats may scream at Republicans and Republicans may reciprocate, but neither party, nor their constituent factions have a solution, because the electorate will never accept the resolutions that are necessary to even come close to resolving the crisis.
 
Every year I choose to pay more in taxes by not claiming any deductions. It makes my taxes simple and helps my government to pay down its debt.
 
Humor me then! I mean, it's no coincidence that the 9/11 attacks took place on the very same year that he was sworn in as the 43rd president of United States. Yeah. I'm mis-informed.

A lot of people called the invasion of Iraq "un-justified" because we went in - WE as a collective country went in and invaded their homeland. And not Mr. Bin Laden's Homeland - Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan was merely a side mission. Barely even a target of these attacks. Yeah, I'm mis-informed.

Likewise a lot of people state that Bush's motivation for invading Iraq was based on "finishing what his father didn't accomplish." And at one point I remember him admitting so. Its not even a coincidence that Bush 1's gulf war was against Saddam Hussein's regime, condemning his invasion on oil factory in southern Middle East. Yeah, I'm mis-informed.

Carlos - the mis-informed, and stupid person, says xenForo community.

Don't forget, Bill Clinton tried to kill Bin Laden with Tomahawk strikes and tossed bombs at Iraq during his terms in office. The 9/11 attacks where already planned before Bush took office. Bush does have his faults but like other things, we can't say Hitler was not an animal lover but we can say other bad things about him.
 
I think there is a human tendency to pile on someone we don't like. I have probably been guilty of it. Let's say there is someone so vile that we want them put away. We go down the list of their wrong doings and if accurate that is fine, it seems too often things they didn't do get added to the list. This kind of takes away from everything.

Once I was involved in some meeting I initiated on if we should fire someone. The list of things wrong where plenty long then some stuff was added that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where not true. I made mention of the things she was accused of but didn't do but get the response "So your defending her now?" It is simply not fair to charge someone with crimes they didn't commit even if there is a mountain of them we can charge them with. I wish we could charge people with only the things we feel they did wrong with out adding to the pile.
 
There's another virtually criminal single currency whose existence is unsustainable. It's called the US dollar.

Unfortunately, the system has reached the point where no amount of political ideology or fear mongering can rescue the situation. There will be a calamitous crash, and the result will be profound. Democrats may scream at Republicans and Republicans may reciprocate, but neither party, nor their constituent factions have a solution, because the electorate will never accept the resolutions that are necessary to even come close to resolving the crisis.
Exactly. My grandfather's generation sacrificed in ways that has never been seen since to fight WWII. Politics was a blood sport even then, but everyone was able to recognize the fight of good versus evil trumpets the squabbling of left vs. right.

Our debt is evil without a doubt. We are so much in debt, that if we continued to collect taxes and completely shut down the government, it would still take 6 years to pay it off. The true measure of the inherent evil in that debt isn't just what it means to us as a nation, selling ourselves into an indentured servitude - because what else can you call it when I have to work until I'm 70 so that the generation before me can retire at 65?

No, it is the impact on the world of mismanaging the government solvency of the world reserve currency. If our economy crashes because we can't get our house in order, we're taking along all of western Europe and Asia. We will be the reason the world descends into another Great Depression, and for WWIII that will follow, because evil will not sit idle when the world is vulnerable. Thats when it will strike. N Korean into S Korea, and China into Taiwan. And don't put it past Russia to invade former territories either.

As much as I hate what I'm about to say as an American, what the world needs to do right now is push for a new reserve currency, something backed by more than a Treasury Dept printing press. Then plan for the US to become a second world nation and the rise of China, India and Brazil as the new world powers.
 
The two solutions that the intelligentsia float that seem most likely to actually occur (rather than the other options of raising significant revenue through taxes or through significant cuts) is that we "grow" our way out of the problem (increased growth meaning more tax revenues- much of this was the way that we got to a zero deficit under Clinton) or inflation helps to decrease the value of our debts. I don't mean to say that they are likely, just that I think one or both of these occurring to some extent is more likely to occur than significant revenue (tax) increases or expenditure cutting happening (the plan passed into law that would trigger huge cuts if there is not an agreement by super-committee could well come to pass...but, I am not sure that you can discount a future action of Congress undoing the current plan).

Now, what I think is more likely is that we have a significant contraction and it takes a long time for the US to see significant growth. Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, the US (like it or not) is by far the safest "bet" that countries, banks and companies think there is...this is still the case, but historically is also the case, so investors world wide hold trillions of dollars in Treasuries, and as a result, anything bad that happens to the US is felt around the world. So, while I think bad things may happen to the US economy, the pain will be shared and I think the US retains its position as the largest and strongest economy in the world (though weakened significantly). Note that US Treasuries actually were the safe haven that many investors poured their money into last Thursday. While the US stock markets got pounded, buyers were still looking for the "safety" (ironic as that may be) of Treasuries.

Not saying any of this is morally right or the smartest thing....just that I think it reflects the current situation. I would have titled the thread "The weakening of the United States is probably inevitable...but only in absolute terms and, relative to other countries, not much will change"
 
The problem is the solutions to our problems won't be anything people will support because it will be hard. First and foremost, the federal government needs to be reduced significantly. Let me give you one example - the Department of Education. The U.S. spends more per capita than any other country on education, but perform worse that most of the industrialized world in math and science competence, from kindergarten through the 12th grade. So clearly our problem isn't that we don't spend enough. Moreover, where is education funding collected? as part of your locally collected property taxes, correct? Perhaps we would be better served if that money never leaves the state and each state manages their own education system without Federal bureaucracy - which is also funded by your education dollars. We can cut education taxes by 20% and get better results simply by cutting out the federal government.'

I can tell you that my litmus test would be constitutional authority for a government agency. Department of Defense, retained. Department of Agriculture, dissolved. Department of Justice, retained. etc. There are some important functions with the Dept of Agriculture that we would need to keep such as food safety, but those could be performed by the Dept of Commerce which would be retained also. The goal would be to cut the federal government by more than 50%. Eliminate unconstitutional and extra-constitutional agencies, reduce redundancies, reduce regulations, and restore traditional states rights.

On the military side of things, its time to reassess our overseas commitments. We have troops stations based on WWII commitments and Cold War threats. Time to let our allies shoulder the burden for their own security. We don't need bases in Western Europe anymore. Time to close them all, bring our troops home and realign active duty troop levels.

While we're at it, dissolve NATO. It has never lived up to its ideals and there are NATO members that have never fulfilled their obligations. Another international organization that has never quite lived up to its vision is the UN. I would invite the UN to relocate to Brussels and greatly curtail financial support for that international debating society.

Military adventurism needs to end. Repeal the War Powers Act. The US only puts troops in harm's way with a declaration of war.

Economically, we are held hostage by OPEC. Time to end that. We open up ANWAR and the coasts to oil drilling - to US companies. Not BP, Brazil or China, but US oil producers. We also have to embrace nuclear power. Frace is an excellent example of how it can be done safely.

Which brings us to taxes. Two flat taxes - a national sales tax and a flat income tax. Everyone pays from the bottom to the top at the same percentage. No loopholes, and nothing more than the standard deduction permitted.

More tough love?

Welfare is ended. No able bodied American should collect a check from Uncle Sam without working for it. Workfare will replace welfare. Instead of welfare sucking off the GDP of the US, Workfare will increase the GDP.

The minimum wage will be lowered. Like it or not, we're competing in a global economy and the cost of unskilled labor in the US is too high. $7.25/hr for flipping burgers is ridiculous. Time to be more realistic. We can't keep reassign the minimum wage and complain about companies moving overseas. Do we not realize we're causing this?

Social Security - time for the elderly to realize a harsh truth - you allowed your saving to be spent by your government. Its not there. And you can't expect the next generation to pay for your mistake by working until they're 70 so you can retire at 65. Its morally wrong. To do so will create a cycle where the next germination is a wage slave to the previous. I'm sorry, but your benefits are going to have to be cut. The government cannot be your primary means of support. That duty now falls to your family where, frankly, it should always have been.

This is what we need to restore our financial health. Do you really see the US with the stomach for this? Do you think Americans are ready to care for their elderly parents instead of the government? My grandparents' generation could have done it. As the children of WWI and the adults of The Great Depression and WWII, they understood common sacrifice.

We don't possess a 1/10th of their greatness. We will not accept reality. We will not accept the sacrifices that are required to solve our problems. We've lied to ourselves about our greatness to the point where we believe it. We think we're a nation of destiny, the shining light of freedom when the reality is we're slaves to our debt, selling our nation piecemeal to our greatest threat - China.

The Egyptian empire fell. Greece gave way to history. Roman fell into a decline of its own making. Britannia allowed the sun to set on it. America will soon reach its zenith, if it hasn't already.
 
Problems with America:
(3) America is run by the rich, for the rich. The corruption in the government, the ultra rich, and the media perpetuates America's problems.

s.and.p.downgrade.government.webp


Looks like S&P doesn't like how Washington is functioning.
Amen to that.
The sad part was .... partisan politics was in hyper-drive following the announcement. Precisely the reason for the downgrade. If you didn't agree with the downgrade when it happened. Surely the response to it proved the point that America is run by a broken political system.
 
.. but neither party, nor their constituent factions have a solution, because the electorate will never accept the resolutions that are necessary to even come close to resolving the crisis.
This is a major factor.

Canada's bond agencies downgraded Canada from TripleA to DoubleA+ in 1993. The International rating agencies followed suit. After spending cuts and a better economy, a few years later the Canada's credit rating was put back up to AAA.
 
DigDoc, you're thinking is part of the problem. America isn't run by the rich. Thats typical democrat class warfare speak. Democrats, the party controlling the White House and the Senate, has its power base in the poor, unions, minorities and the elderly - groups they keep enslaved to them through entitlements. And don't think for a second they genuinely care about them or they'd foster independence instead of greater dependence.

Republicans, on the other hand, cater to business which is different than the rich. But they will sell them out in a heartbeat based on polling data.

So what is it that both groups have in common? You can find the answer is a simple question. If you were given he choice, would you prefer to be wealthy or to have power?

Washington is full of the power hungry and everything they do is about accumulating more power. It is absolutely true that power corrupts and a government based upon accumulating and wielding power is extremely corrupt. The government is the head of the national body and when the head becomes corrupt, the body will die.

I have seen a great decline in this nation in my lifetime. I don't see the slide ending in anything but collapse.
 
DigDoc, you're thinking is part of the problem. America isn't run by the rich.
If power runs Washington, it's money that is the fuel.
I provided some reasonable information that since 2000, there has been 660 billion less money collected in taxes in the US. Have statistics like that made the news ? I like my suggestion of changing taxes to the way they were in 2000. I think that is a "sell able idea". :)

I say "America is run by the rich" because it seems money has such powerful on the media, elections, and government lobbying. Money buys influence. And the Democrats certainly don't have nearly as much. Fox "News" seems to be like at 24-7 advertisement for the Republicans. Corrupt. Corrupt. Corrupt.

At the end of the day, I feel the Republicans are deceiving the public more than the Democrats. Any party that says large tax increases aren't desperately needed, especially on the people that can afford it .. is lying.

As Kier mentioned, maybe it's voters / electorate that can't be told what they need to do ?

Anyway, I've decided to start reading World News according to the next super power. :p

Ideally the Democrats will become mini-fiscal conservatives.
 
The Democratic Party has its power base in the poor, unions, minorities and the elderly - groups they keep enslaved to them through entitlements. And don't think for a second they genuinely care about them or they'd foster independence instead of greater dependence.

Entitlements is an inflammatory word. I even heard Obama use the word.
I'm sure a Republican probably coined that term.

I'm all for encouraging independence, but in terms of "best bang for the buck" I don't think cutting Welfare is high yield vs. Increasing Taxes or cutting other areas (ie. Defense).

What is a "fair" amount of money for welfare, unemployment, etc is a very difficult judgment call which is usually decided based on if you lean left or right.

In the age of the internet, I wonder if all of today's political systems are out of date.
 
For every complaint about Fox News, you could level the same for CNN or MSNBC.

We can also say that any party that says major cuts to entitlements are necessary is also lying. Or did you miss the part where a 100% tax rate on everyone making more than $250K a year doesn't eliminate the debt?

Repeat after me...

They are all lying, including lying to themselves.

Democrats will never be fiscal conservatives, because they are socialist. Republicans will never be social moderates, because they are individualists.

And the voters? Hell, we've turned politics into a blood sport. We have our favorite team and we hate the competition. We cheer for the win/lose scenario.

We are all complicit to some degree.
 
This next election should be ALL ABOUT the EXACT FINANCIAL plans.
I think every candidate should have to make up a plan that outlines EXACTLY what they are going to cut and how they are going to increase taxes. The parties themselves should have to do this as well. I don't even want to hear candidates talk.

Show me the money.

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They are all lying, including lying to themselves.
+100
 
Before this Congress can raise a single dime in taxes, I want a balanced budget amendment passed. I don't want to pay another dime until I know the people writing the checks know how to balance their checkbook.
 
Before this Congress can raise a single dime in taxes, I want a balanced budget amendment passed. I don't want to pay another dime until I know the people writing the checks know how to balance their checkbook.

and the Democrats say:

Before this Congress can cut any programs, I want a fair tax system with all the corporate loopholes eliminated.

I think fiscal responsibility is paramount, but the overly idealistic "balanced budget amendment" might be too ideological and not responsible.

I balanced the budget a few pages back with a 660 billion increase in taxes (put taxes back to year 2000 levels) and the rest was slashing defense and entitlements.
 
This is really pretty simple. Every taxpaying American is in debt by $155K, thanks to Washington. Its not ideological. Both parties contributed to that debt. Before they ask any more from me, I want to know that they are legally obligated to manage the money I provide them.

If the US Government was subject to the same Generally Accept Accounting Procedures (GAAP) and The Sarbanes-Oxley Act 2002 just like the rest of the business world, every last member of Congress would be under criminal investigation at best and probably indicted.

I don't see where a Balanced Budget Amendment is a bad thing. They want to regulate everyone else against mismanagement. I want to regulate them.
 
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