Thank you Chief Justice Roberts, you are a wise man.
- Thread starter Digital Doctor
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Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Every other industrialized nation other than the US ?
Try the list of nations with a Triple A rating on their debt in this thread.
Brad L
Well-known member
Well obviously I disagree. The point was to ask for substance and not opinion.
DBA
Well-known member
Exactly!
I also have a high deductible (catastrophic) plan. The main reason I have it is because I race dirt bikes (motocross) and the injury rate is pretty high in this sport. Unfortunately I've had to use it a few times already and it still put a considerable cost on me, which it should. However I view health insurance as a payment plan, they cover it upfront while I pay them back monthly. Americans are becoming to caught up in entitlements and thinking that everything needs to paid for them. I'm getting fed up with that way of thinking.
For example I pay ~$170 a month for my individual health insurance. So far they've paid out over $100k+ in medical expenses, while I've paid them ~$10k in premiums. So basically I got $100k worth of medical expenses for $0.10 on the dollar. Who's ripping off who here?
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
That was a list of 17 countries that have decided that a more socialized medicine is good for their citizens. It also is a list of the countries with a AAA rating on their debt (a measure of economic stability).
It's not my opinion. It is the opinion of the 17 countries and Standard & Poors Debt rating.
Note: a single payor system *BANS* private insurance for services covered by the single payor system.
I'd be happy to provide you with ***COUNTLESS*** articles outlining that health care carried out by private insurance is more expensive than care provided by pubic funds. It's been proven, over and over and over again.
DBA
Well-known member
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Private insurance is the problem.
They have no interest in controlling costs.
They just markup the cost of healthcare and take their profits.
Obama's plan will not help control costs ... and that is why it is a failure.
(Obama's plan was better than the status quo before he came to office).
In a single payor health system (private insurance is banned) the payor controls the costs.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Nice paint job.
. Thanks. http://www.standardandpoors.com/
http://chartsbin.com/view/1177
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care
Geez, even China is trying to help it's own people with Healthcare.
If you ask a specific question, I'll see if I can answer it.
craigiri
Well-known member
I wish I would live that long to allow me to bet you on that one!
You will get your SS.
I've been hearing the same thing for 30+ years...probably since I was your age..and guess what? I'll be able to collect soon and it's all there.
It's a typical talking point to repeat, but it is simply untrue.
As an example, if nothing is done.....that is, no adjustments are made (and they always are!), then SS would have 76 percent of promised FOREVER. In other words, if they did "go broke", using up all the reserves and didn't change the legislation....they always tweak it, they would have over 3/4 of your benefits. But they will tweak it and I think you can count on 90% of what they promise. I say 90%, because they make adjust the taxation, etc. so if you retire and still make 300K a year, you may have to pay taxes on your SS
But you will get it. Mark my words.
BGL
Well-known member
Nope. That's your fantasy. Hospital ER's are required to take people for free.
Your opinion and the facts are widely divergent. People break legs, get cancer, strokes, tonsils, tear ACL's all to "get money" by paying $12,000 to insurance company before getting any care and then paying another $10,000 in deductibles and 20% and then paying $24,000 next year for insurance (if you can get it) because you have "pre-existing conditions".
Well Social Security has $4T in the bank that it lent to US to spend $1.4T a year in 21 years of Middle East oil wars. So the Pentagon might be bankrupt but Social Security has a healthy $4T in the bank. Amazing over last 30 years SS ran a $4T surplus and Reagan and the Bushes ran a $14T deficit/debt (Clinton ran surpluses). Medicare/Social Security together have $2T surplus over last 30 years.
But that's a bit different than health care though somewhat related vis Medicare/Medicaid and US dysfunctional insurance industry run health care system.
DBA
Well-known member
My fantasy eh? So you're calling me a liar as I've done this more then once and I know a number of people who have done the same. I'm not pulling this out of my arse, but instead from first hand experience.
I'm referring to going to your family doctor for stomach pains and other "common" ailments (without having insurance). Broken bones and other orthopedic injuries are different, I don't go to a family doctor for those injuries. I've had a number of broken bones and torn ligaments, all of which were fixed at an orthopedic center. If I hadn't had insurance they would've put me on a payment plan.
Can you please link to your source(s) on these numbers, otherwise I'm led to believe that you made them up.
DBA
Well-known member
People have always gotten health care, just walk into your local ER. This is more about health insurance and that everyone will be required to have it or pay a tax.
craigiri
Well-known member
Walking into the local ER cost you (through taxation) 3X as much.
Plus, the actual facts show that people get much less health care when they have to wait until they are that sick - that causes suffering (unhappiness of the people) plus high costs!
Those are the issues.
As to taxes or mandates, etc - just subsitute a different word/phrase and you will see the wisdom. Here are some:
Responsibility
Paying a fair share
Skin in the game
Carrying one's weight
Not being the weak link in the chain.
or, if you like, make your own up. That is the purpose of the mandate - to make the system work.
craigiri
Well-known member
Have you really never been pointed to the stats on health care outcomes and expenditures around the world? If not, I will prepare a list - but I think we come in somewhere about #35 in total measurement...right next to Cuba, which spends $250 per person for similar results to us.
We are, by far, the outlier. That is, the cost/value proposition....we are the car that costs the most, gets the worst mileage and breaks down more often.
The easiest quick look is a simple scatter chart or cluster....there you go below. It shows we pay double and get less. If you consider that a good outcome, I have some investments I'd like to sell you.....a little wet at high tide, though!
BGL
Well-known member
Correct. Per New England Journal of Medicine, 40,000 people die in the US each year due to not having health care. That's just deaths directly attributable to no health care. 46 million have not health insurance so health care for them is all cash and anything minor even, kid needs emergency appendectomy, can knock a median income family into bankruptcy. Of those with health care, many pay $20K per year (average family of four) but then have such high deductibles and copays that getting health care after paying insurance can bankrupt them. All that pushes much of US to put off health care making eventual problems more debilitating if not fatal and much more expensive.
But the insurance companies who provide no health care are paid first adding 40% to cost of US health care.
BGL
Well-known member
In our own little world of "Pay a lot more, get a lot less".
BGL
Well-known member
Probably you getting ripped since with catastrophic high deductible they would not be paying any of the $100K so they collect $2,000 a year and pay nothing. You've obviously left something out of your story, the high deductible and high copay. Always best to leave the personal anecdotes that, wonder of wonder, agree with your world view, funny that. Stick with the real world stats. US 20% of GDP, Europe 10% of GDP. US 70% with some health care, Europe 100% with full coverage. US 37th in world health stats. US No. 1 in health care costs.
BGL
Well-known member
Always interesting that our personal stories the ones of people we know all match our opinions. That's why anecdotes are not very useful and hard stats more reliable.
You said you had catastrophic with high deductible which means unless you have catastrophic injury they don't pay and you pay cash, usually about $10K and then pay 20% after that usually another $10K. So an ACL, about $10K, you'd pay it all plus your $2K a year insurance. Insurance company would pay nothing. That's how catastrophic, high deductible's work.
Eyup. You pay, we operate. Credit cards accepted. If no insurance, we will require credit card (checked for amount available on credit) or a check that clears prior to surgery. With catastrophic high deductible, it's basically a cash for service.
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