Thank you Chief Justice Roberts, you are a wise man.

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John said:
Riigghht. Get back with me on that in say 3 or 4 years.
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So, there is no answer that satisfies you? You asked how this would be paid for, and I answered with what the law says...either you disagree with the law in principle or you think the numbers don't add up. Either way, no need to be snide to someone who answered your question. I assumed you did not know the answer because you asked the question.

John said:
Hah! You already are, don't you know. You really think it's going to be cheaper, better managed, and fairer with the federal government running the show?
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Is it just that the Federal government is involved at all that is a bad thing? Doesn't the Federal Government do any thing right? To my mind, the military does a great job in performing their mission (yes, Fed. Gov), the FAA seems to do a good job of keeping airplane from dropping from the sky. And, in your mind, is there a difference between a "tyranny" (which I don;t think exists here) imposed by the government or a private company?
 
FWIW, I think the healthcare strategy of mandating private insurance will not control costs as much as it should ... and therefore is a failure.

Real Healthcare reform (a Single Payor System, aka Medicare for all, banning private insurance) was blocked by Republicans.

As discussed previously, every country with a triple A rating on their debt is a Parliamentary democracy. I bet they all have good publicly funded education and healthcare. USA score: 0/3.
 
jadmperry said:
So, there is no answer that satisfies you? You asked how this would be paid for, and I answered with what the law says...either you disagree with the law in principle or you think the numbers don't add up. Either way, no need to be snide to someone who answered your question. I assumed you did not know the answer because you asked the question.
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Oh, there absolutely is an answer that satisfies me, let the free market work freely which it is in no way allowed to do now. My response to you was not snide in the least. You implied the biggest tax increase in history that isn't even paid for somehow will just "work itself out" and not morph into a monster...I simply said time will tell.


jadmperry said:
Is it just that the Federal government is involved at all that is a bad thing? Doesn't the Federal Government do any thing right?
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Yes and no. I happen to work for the gov't. and have for a very long time. I remember an occasion when I first came to work and had seen several ways to do things in my job more efficiently and save money. I approached my boss with my ideas and was promptly told "you need to get out of this for profit mindset you bring from the private sector...this is the gov't. and if we don't spend every penny we budget, we won't get it next year nor will we be able to ask for more". I promise you that mindset permeates every level of government.
 
shawn said:
When the reality is that infant viability is calculated differently from one country to the next. The US spends a tremendous amount of money trying to save the lives of pre-term infants, often (but not always) with great success. Other countries consider <35 weeks to be a miscarriage, so it doesn't factor in to their mortality statistics.
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And only the commentators or combat radio know this...puleeze...WHO and OECD take all that in account when doing statistical comparisons on health care costs and results.

US ranks 37th in the world overall while paying TWICE AS MUCH as countries like those in Europe who rank in the top 10% with HALF THE COST.

Cold, hard health care facts.

But we won't solve them on the XenForo forum so probably best to close the thread now that everyone has had a chance to vent.
 
What I find ironic is...
It is the greedy insurance comapnies that put healthcare insurance costs above what some folks can afford to pay - thus creating this problem where folks can't afford insurance.
Now these same companies stand to benefit from the mass rush of folks obtaining the insurance.

There is no right answer... Do I think everyone should be forced to buy anything - no...
Do I think it is fair for a hospital to be required to provide services to people who have no means to pay it back - no...
Do I think its fair for someone who has insurance to suddenly be dropped because they just got diagnosed with an expensive illness - no...
and do I think its fair that people who worked hard all their life, suddenly find themselves sick and bankrupt due to the costs - no...

So... I find good and bad on both sides... The problem is, no one who implements these things ever listen to both sides.
 
John said:
Yes and no. I happen to work for the gov't. and have for a very long time.
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Very interesting.

John said:
let the free market work freely which it is in no way is allowed to do now.
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Your free market is why the world is in a global recession.
The lack of reasonable regulations on the financial systems of the USA was the problem.
It is clear that markets need regulation and that the party of less regulation (Republicans) has zero chance in November. 2012 will not be the year of the party of the 1%. You can take that to the (increasing regulated) bank.
 
The individual mandate is illegal. I don't need a bunch of people wearing dresses to tell me whether or not a law is unconstitutional, it takes common sense.
 
Bain said:
The individual mandate is illegal. I don't need a bunch of people wearing dresses to tell me whether or not a law is unconstitutional, it takes common sense.
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Everyone needs healthcare.
I'm not paying your bill when you get in a car accident.
So mandatory healthcare insurance is reasonable.
 
Digital Doctor said:
Very interesting.


Your free market is why the world is in a global recession.
The lack of reasonable regulations on the financial systems of the USA was the problem.
It is clear that markets need regulation and that the party of less regulation (Republicans) has zero chance in November. 2012 will not be the year of the party of the 1%. You can take that to the (increasing regulated) bank.
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Oh, I see...fell for OWS propaganda hook, line, and sinker didn't we. The global recession is all the big, bad USA's fault. If it weren't for those pesky rich republicans (like there is no such thing as a rich democrat lol). I guess all those years of European socialism with it's gov't paid this and that (which is and was not really ever paid for) had nothing to do with it, huh? Greece, Spain, Portugal, etc. are just victims then? They have no responsibility for the fact that they don't pay enough (or as in Greece's case, tax evasion is a national past time) into the system that spends more than it takes in? Their early retirements, huge pensions and low productivity are all just innocent bystanders to the real problem...the greedy USA?

You are certainly welcome to your deception, but 2012 will be anything but the year of the "OWS mindset" at the polls.
 
LOL. Ante up then !
I'll bet you a Xenforo license.

For the president:
Republicans win, I buy you one.
Democrats win, you buy me one.
 
Bain said:
The individual mandate is illegal. I don't need a bunch of people wearing dresses to tell me whether or not a law is unconstitutional, it takes common sense.
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Of course. We each get to decide whether every law is unconstitutional.....
;)
 
John said:
haha, you're on! :)
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Can I get in here with some odds? My rightie friends have been telling me for 3 years that there is NO WAY Obama would ever get re-elected.

How about giving me a break john? Since it is a surety that the American people could never be that crazy, give me a little advantage here. My $15 against your $20. I say Obama is re-elected. Paypal only.

Any takers. Bring 'em on.
 
John said:
I promise you that mindset permeates every level of government.
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Well, I worked in the private sector for 40 year.

I can assure you that "how can we make the most money possible" permeates every level of corporations and individuals.
;)
 
BGL said:
Oh but it is because they don't have a primary care pediatrician who they can go to when it was a "stomach ache" only an ER to go to when it didn't go away for two days, got worse and the kid finally stopped screaming but looked really scary bad and off to the ER. It's a classic case. A short easy operation becomes life or death battle in the PICU (Pediatric Intensive Care Unit), the most expensive place on earth, and the bill, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. Kiddo may or may not make it.
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You're telling me that you can't just walk into a doctors office/urgent care center without insurance? Sorry but that's untrue as I've done it a number of times. One of the local doctors offices charges $80 per visit and the other $110.

IMO one (of many) reasons that health insurance rates are so high is because of people abusing it. Let's say it's the weekend and you have stomach pain, you could wait until Monday to go to your PCP. However since you have insurance you decide to go to the ER as they'll pay for it anyway. The pain ends up being nothing, however you just wasted a lot of the insurance companies money. Do you care? Of course not, it's not your money.

John said:
Good luck with that. When has the federal government ever controlled spending? :ROFLMAO:
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Yeah seriously. I've been paying into Social Security for a number of years now, but I'll never get anything back as it'll be bankrupt by the time I can retire.
 
DBA said:
You're telling me that you can't just walk into a doctors office/urgent care center without insurance? Sorry but that's untrue as I've done it a number of times. One of the local doctors offices charges $80 per visit and the other $110.

IMO one (of many) reasons that health insurance rates are so high is because of people abusing it. Let's say it's the weekend and you have stomach pain, you could wait until Monday to go to your PCP. However since you have insurance you decide to go to the ER as they'll pay for it anyway. The pain ends up being nothing, however you just wasted a lot of the insurance companies money. Do you care? Of course not, it's not your money.
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Amen brother, it used to be that health insurance, like your car or home owners insurance was supposed to protect you from catastrophic expenses, but some where along the line it's morphed in to something that's supposed to pay for every little thing. It's no wonder health insurance and health care cost are spiraling up.

Call me crazy, but I think if we went back to the the pay for routine care out pocket model we'd better off... I've got high deductible HSA plan now so I pay out of pocket for everything until I've met my deductible for the year (which I've only done once -- two years ago when I got appendicitis on my birthday).
 
craigiri said:
This is absolutely not true.

Firstly, there are already caps PUT IN PLACE BY INSURANCE COMPANIES. Since there are a limited number of companies that can come up with the billions to be a health insurance company, the "market" is extremely limited and always will be.

Secondly, I know quite a few doctors and they have been BURIED under the mess of HMO's and insurance company paperwork and rules for decades. A lot of docs have found themselves unable to serve their patients correctly - I know a few who have quit. Not every doctor wants to be a businessman trying to earn as much as possible - in fact, most don't.

There is no limit to what a doctor who discovers a new drug or invents a piece of equipment can earn. Many (actually most) of the medical breakthroughs in the world come from European countries, which seems to speak against your point.

I will grant you one point! Medicare Fraud is a way LOTS of docs can make big money...and they do. But that's another subject.....

Massachusetts, with it's "socialized" medical care, leads the nation in Bio-tech and has a booming economy with health care being a large sector. We have the highest income in the country (or close). Look it up.
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What I stated is so basic to human nature that I don't know how to respond to your disagreement.
 
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