Teen escapes jail after killing in self defence.

So for those who didn't read it, 14 year old kid gets bullied by bigger kid, then gets attacked and snaps. Smaller kid pulls out a knife and kills the older kid by stabbing him 12 times.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, the adults failed this younger kid. He was being assaulted on his way out of the bus. Why didn't the bus driver step in and do anything? Probably because if he/she did they would have gotten in trouble for putting their hands on a student, which is a stupid rule under the circumstances. Also, we tend to celebrate when a kid snaps and puts a bully in their place, just look at that Australian kid from last year when he slam-dunked his bully.

On the other hand, taking a knife to someone is a big step. You can bet if he had access to a gun that's what it would have been.

In the end, though, I feel for everyone in this instance. The bully - only a kid himself - didn't realize how far he was pushing this kid and he paid for it with his life. The smaller kid felt he had no other option as the adults either would not or could not stop the bullying. Instead of killing himself as many bullied kids do when they reach this PERCEIVED end of options, he attacked his tormentor. And now he has to live with this the rest of his life.

Whether you think the kid was in the wrong or in the right makes no difference as there is no right/wrong in this case. It's just very, very dark and grey.
 
"(He) was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno."
"Saavedra “demonstrated that, with or without a knife, (he) had no desire to fight with Dylan Nuno.”"
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It seems like the kid was pushed over the edge, leaving him the ultimate decision to make to defend his life. I've seen bullies, I had to deal with some when I was a kid. Luckily I had two brothers who had my back. Not everyone is that lucky....
 
knife...gun...it makes no difference. I think the judge made the right call. Obviously, there are things that everyone says should be done when being bullied. "Go tell your teacher." "Talk to the principal." "Tell your parents." These things simply don't work. Anyone who has ever been bullied before, knows these things just delay the inevitable. The amount of torture a child goes through while waiting for something to actually be done is often unbearable. Finally, the victim snaps and beats that ass, or in this case, kills the P.O.S who is causing him harm. He was attacked. He clearly tried to avoid any trouble, but likely due to bad parenting, the bully was too stupid to take a hint. Now he's dead. There's one less ignorant person in the world now.
 
Having been the victim of bullying as a young child (and yes, I told my teachers and my parents met with the principle multiple times) -- I certainly applaud the kid for defending himself.

It's a shame it came down to it but the kid is not to blame here. The bully is first and foremost followed closely by the officials who neglected the situation
 
I'd personally not consider 12 stabs self-defence. However, in cases like this, and after reading the kid tried to first avoid the fight, I would side with the victim.

Shame on the parents though for blindly calling it murder, despite there being no evidence to back that statement, and all the evidence to the contrary that it was their son who was the wrongdoer in this case.
 
I picture the attack being like Ralphie from a Christmas Story. Yes, he was the attacker, but even while doing it he's emotional and crying.
 
SchmitzIT said:
I'd personally not consider 12 stabs self-defence. However, in cases like this, and after reading the kid tried to first avoid the fight, I would side with the victim.
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When you've physically hit, your body is going to react that way. If you can't run, you can only fight.
 
SchmitzIT said:
I'd personally not consider 12 stabs self-defence. However, in cases like this, and after reading the kid tried to first avoid the fight, I would side with the victim.

Shame on the parents though for blindly calling it murder, despite there being no evidence to back that statement, and all the evidence to the contrary that it was their son who was the wrongdoer in this case.
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Same here. Hard one to call really, but generally speaking if a person is not doing the attacking, but defending themselves instead. You might expect 1 or 2, even 3 stabbings to take place, 4 at a push. But 12 sounds like the guy flew into a rage and went berserk! I would guess the guy doing the attacking was more or less finished after 2, 3 or 4 stabbing, he might have lived had the other 8 stabbings not took place.

I wouldn't like to make a call either way on this one.
 
Im glad the bully is dead. Bullying needs to stop. This has to be the best way Ive ever seen to get the message across. No I wasnt bullied past an initial attempt, and yes I stopped the several bullies that have crossed my path over my lifetime. Not to the death, but it didnt need to go that far.
 
TNCclubman said:
Im glad the bully is dead. Bullying needs to stop. This has to be the best way Ive ever seen to get the message across. No I wasnt bullied past an initial attempt, and yes I stopped the several bullies that have crossed my path over my lifetime. Not to the death, but it didnt need to go that far.
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Can't agree with you. I'm never glad when a child dies, justified or not. Having been in parts of the world where militant thugs arm their children to fight and been forced to defend myself, I can tell you that that the surviving child will have nightmares for the rest of his life.

On the other hand, a bully is different than a 14 year old with an AK-47 pointed at you. A bully can change, a bully can be stopped. Being the bully here doesn't mean we should rejoice in his death. Edrondol is correct. There is no right or wrong, just tragedy. We, as the adults, failed them both because we could have intervened and saved them both.
 
Treat others how you yourself would wish to be treated, and if you treat someone like crap then expect to suffer yourself. As someone who was treated like garbage in school, I think that a bully being stabbed only 12 times was the real lenient punishment here.
 
SchmitzIT said:
I'd personally not consider 12 stabs self-defence. However, in cases like this, and after reading the kid tried to first avoid the fight, I would side with the victim.

Shame on the parents though for blindly calling it murder, despite there being no evidence to back that statement, and all the evidence to the contrary that it was their son who was the wrongdoer in this case.
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It's quite easy to monday night quarterback as we were not present at the situation. For a calm rationalize, in control, and with complete sanity, it is expected that we are able to control our actions.

However, in a fight or flight situation, our bodies are flooded with a number of hormones that could push anyone over the edge and do things normally one is not capable of doing



Note: Please note I'm not condoning or condemning the defendant or the victim. I'm merely pointing out the physiological changes one goes through the moment they are put into a 'flight or fight' type situation.

There were faults on many sides that lead to the death of an individual, including but not limited to:
  • Intervention by the Bus Driver
  • Intervention by the School and School District
  • Intervention by students for not reporting the suspected fight
  • Intervention by the victim's parents for not disciplining their child and teaching the child basic respect
  • Intervention by the defendant's parents for not investigating the matter
  • Defendant not stepping up voicing concerns about "taunting" on the bus
  • Peers of both Defendant and Victim for not managing the situation
  • Lack of Education about "taunting" and "bullying"
  • Lack of "safe habour" protocols to allow anonymous reporting
  • Lack of intervention on the part of the peer's parents.
 
turtile said:
When you've physically hit, your body is going to react that way. If you can't run, you can only fight.
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Yeah it's the fight or flight instinct that all animals have.

Punching someone in the back of the head is a quick way to make someone snap, no matter how old they are.

When adrenaline shoots through someone's system you never know what it's accompanied with.

Obviously panic, disorientation and in the case of bullying 'pent up anger'.

Like pressing the button on a time bomb.

Growing up I used to love watching small kids beat up their larger and older bullies.
 
Another thing I'd like to add to this thread is that at one time I had a second job as a bouncer at Club La Vela in Panama City Beach, FL. I prevented most fights before they developed. You really just have to be very observant and perceptive. I've never had to beat up a customer. There were times where I had to pick up some drunk and either carry or drag them out the club but it was rare. The point I'm trying to make is that most fights can be avoided if the person in charge is paying attention. I blame the bus driver. The bus driver could've stopped the bus at any time that bullying went out of hand and called the school and/or police. I say this because I've seen and been in bus fights growing up in Florida. There were bus drivers that would stop the bus and/or call the school and police. Bus driver should be fired in my opinion.
 
turtile said:
When you've physically hit, your body is going to react that way. If you can't run, you can only fight.
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I agree that adrenaline probably got the better of the kid, please don't get me wrong. I still think 12 times is beyond the self-defense limit, though.
 
SchmitzIT said:
I agree that adrenaline probably got the better of the kid, please don't get me wrong. I still think 12 times is beyond the self-defense limit, though.
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It depends on what you consider self-defense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense

The best way of defending yourself is de-esclation. After that, avoidance, but in the case of bodily harm, you have no choice but to counter it. Once you start defending yourself on the physical front, it's hard to stop. We don't live in the stone ages man. Fights aren't normal unless your in sports or hang out in the kind of environments that breed fights. To keep from killing someone, you would have to be trained. Kids aren't really taught how to defend themselves in school. This is Florida. This ain't China. We don't hold Tai Chi classes here. I'm surprised that kid only got stabbed only 12 times.
 
The8thLegion said:
It depends on what you consider self-defense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense

The best way of defending yourself is de-esclation. After that, avoidance, but in the case of bodily harm, you have no choice but to counter it. Once you start defending yourself on the physical front, it's hard to stop. We don't live in the stone ages man. Fights aren't normal unless your in sports or hang out in the kind of environments that breed fights. To keep from killing someone, you would have to be trained. Kids aren't really taught how to defend themselves in school. This is Florida. This ain't China. We don't hold Tai Chi classes here. I'm surprised that kid only got stabbed only 12 times.
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I'd be the last one denying anyone the right to defend themselves. Heck, that's one of the things I absolutely hate about living in Europe (well, that, and the absurd taxes).

In Holland, it used to be pretty common for people who defended themselves against a burglar to be sued by the burglar, to the extent where police officers would (unofficially) advise you just to toss the burglar outside rather than keep him inside your own house, and risk finding yourself sitting in jail for assault while the burglar would be let loose almost the same day.

Luckily that is now starting to change, but self defense, according to Dutch law, still stops at the point where the direct threat is negated. Go beyond that level, and you'll enter the realm of excessive violence. There's huge gray areas in there, as it is entirely possible for even a single hit to have unintentional consequences and what not, but still. I am not convinced 12 stabs is neccessary purely from a textbook definition of self-defense.

That said, I still am on the side of the kid who got bullied and ended up pulling a knife. I merely am having some trouble with the judge labeling it self-defense.
 
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