DRE
Well-known member
WTF @ Holland.
Teen escapes jail after killing in self defence.
- Thread starter Slavik
- Start date
Carlos
Well-known member
Let's not confuse "12 stabs self-defense" with murder, which is obviously what the parents are calling it. I mean, we're talking about a kid who probably don't know the difference between stabbing and attacking. Those 12 stabs sound like the same thing as a person holstering a pistol at a person and shooting him twice or three times - making sure the person's dead, even though that the person didn't intend it. The bully attacked him in ways he feels threatening, so I think the self-defense part of it rings true.
The victim probably also didn't know how to stop it... I am glad he is defending himself. I believe he is.
This, I agree with.
I agree.
I have been bullied before, but not as extreme as this. Or even close.
A lot of people may consider 15 yrs vs 16 yrs to be "easy" but 16 is as close as you can get to a full adult as 17 yrs is. I consider 13 through 15 to be the period when the teen is [in a] "growing up" phase, whereas 16 through 18 is "I'm already there." And most of the time, the 16 year olds are pretty strong at that age.
TrixieTang
Well-known member
Ever been in a situation where you're in imminent danger? It's like time slows down and a few seconds can seem more like minutes. And if you're fearing for your life then you will defend yourself until you're sure that the threat to you is gone, and if that means making sure that the threat is dead then chances are that you'll be aiming to kill that threat. And if that threat were a bear or a human you wouldn't make a distinction, it's a fight for your life and you intend to win it.
I know people always make that argument that "excessive" force somehow means guilt, but to me it shows just how scared the person was for their life and safety.
EQnoble
Well-known member
When someone is being bullied...they can be in a traumatic state. If this wasn't a one time thing...(mind you I am commenting on responses in this thread without reading the actually story because honestly names are pointless here.) The person who defended himself was reacting out of pure instinct.
When a human sees a threat against what they know as their way of life if you want to put it that way, their natural reaction is to try and disassemble the threat. He may not have had the outlet of peer mediation or any friends who stood by him (in these cases not many young people want to be the person to stand up to the bully). Even the fight or flight response worked against this kid...if he was a bundle of nerves and wanted to avoid the problem he would have had to play hookie for the rest of his life and forgo his education ...or watch over his shoulder every day in a place where he should feel safe to lower his guard slightly and be able to learn something like I am sure that he would rather be doing. Anyone who has had to fear for their life for an extended period of time will tell you that the stress of knowing and thinking about that takes a major toll on your mind and body and no child should have to deal with that. It is also something that can affect you for the rest of your life; what was taken from this child before he snapped is something no court of law could ever give him back. Stabbing 12 times was literally overkill but if you consider a long duration assault against the kid and the effect it could have had on him...any amount of flexibility was gone from his personality and when he snapped...he probably felt no different than someone who was in the middle of defending himself after being jumped. The amount of times is irrelevant to the child's intention.
On the other hand, the person who tormented him...I would guess..had a pretty good idea of what it felt like to be bullied himself. Most people who are bullies learn it from being up close and personal with it...usually on the receiving end. They manifest their helplessness and hatred into an action on someone else who becomes THEIR submissive part in an act they were part of once as a submissive themselves. I have seen it a lot in my life and it is unfortunate. My point is (suppositions I mind you) if the bully was a kid who fit this bill...he may have learned at an early age that this is the way life is and these acts are acceptable under some convoluted logic. It may not been 100% his fault...he may have been influenced by someone close to him.
At any rate this is a tragedy... period. I do not disrespect the kid who attacked the bully...but what he did was not acceptable in the slightest. Bullies need to be dealt...but not like that. No matter what happens to who in this case...I don't want to hear anymore about it...I feel like I die a little inside when I hear about these kind of events. In the end no matter what happens or what the supporting facts or details are of this event...no one wins here. One child's justice in this case, cost him his freedom and cost another child his life.
No one wins here and no good comes from this...violence begets violence.
As far as the mother who called 911 and defended her home and family...I have no problem with what she did. Two men trying to break into a widows homes (her husband died at Christmas time of cancer) and she is alone raising a baby atm. That is a mother...a mother has the right in my opinion to defend her young.
http://gma.yahoo.com/video/news-267...er-home-while-on-phone-with-911-27777235.html
In this case...use of deadly force...is warranted.
When a human sees a threat against what they know as their way of life if you want to put it that way, their natural reaction is to try and disassemble the threat. He may not have had the outlet of peer mediation or any friends who stood by him (in these cases not many young people want to be the person to stand up to the bully). Even the fight or flight response worked against this kid...if he was a bundle of nerves and wanted to avoid the problem he would have had to play hookie for the rest of his life and forgo his education ...or watch over his shoulder every day in a place where he should feel safe to lower his guard slightly and be able to learn something like I am sure that he would rather be doing. Anyone who has had to fear for their life for an extended period of time will tell you that the stress of knowing and thinking about that takes a major toll on your mind and body and no child should have to deal with that. It is also something that can affect you for the rest of your life; what was taken from this child before he snapped is something no court of law could ever give him back. Stabbing 12 times was literally overkill but if you consider a long duration assault against the kid and the effect it could have had on him...any amount of flexibility was gone from his personality and when he snapped...he probably felt no different than someone who was in the middle of defending himself after being jumped. The amount of times is irrelevant to the child's intention.
On the other hand, the person who tormented him...I would guess..had a pretty good idea of what it felt like to be bullied himself. Most people who are bullies learn it from being up close and personal with it...usually on the receiving end. They manifest their helplessness and hatred into an action on someone else who becomes THEIR submissive part in an act they were part of once as a submissive themselves. I have seen it a lot in my life and it is unfortunate. My point is (suppositions I mind you) if the bully was a kid who fit this bill...he may have learned at an early age that this is the way life is and these acts are acceptable under some convoluted logic. It may not been 100% his fault...he may have been influenced by someone close to him.
At any rate this is a tragedy... period. I do not disrespect the kid who attacked the bully...but what he did was not acceptable in the slightest. Bullies need to be dealt...but not like that. No matter what happens to who in this case...I don't want to hear anymore about it...I feel like I die a little inside when I hear about these kind of events. In the end no matter what happens or what the supporting facts or details are of this event...no one wins here. One child's justice in this case, cost him his freedom and cost another child his life.
No one wins here and no good comes from this...violence begets violence.
As far as the mother who called 911 and defended her home and family...I have no problem with what she did. Two men trying to break into a widows homes (her husband died at Christmas time of cancer) and she is alone raising a baby atm. That is a mother...a mother has the right in my opinion to defend her young.
http://gma.yahoo.com/video/news-267...er-home-while-on-phone-with-911-27777235.html
In this case...use of deadly force...is warranted.
Carlos
Well-known member
*Fantastic gesture* Fantastic sentence. I couldn't have said it better.
DRE
Well-known member
I don't think he's ever had an adrenaline rush before. When adrenaline hits someone's system, 12 stabs is nothing.
SchmitzIT
Well-known member
I saw that story too, and did consider posting it. Good for the mother for living somewhere she actually *is* allowed to defend herself. And that story actually does make a small point of what I stated.
She fired a single gunshot. Not 12.
I never said that. I also said I can agree with the kid standing up for himself. I merely questioned the self-defense argument in the case of 12 stabs.
I assure you that your assumption is completely wrong.
DRE
Well-known member
Okay. When you were in your teens have you ever been in a fight that caused an adrenaline rush?
SchmitzIT
Well-known member
I got bullied more times than I can remember. Does that answer your question?
DRE
Well-known member
At least you weren't carrying a knife.
EQnoble
Well-known member
He very well may have been...he may have just had a higher threshold though and completely different circumstances and mind state at the time of any event.
To be fair to both situations....a 12 gauge shotgun puts a good distance between you and another person from which you can still attack and the only reason for using it in said situation was to defend her person and child or otherwise ...her home. When you have a knife in your hand and you slam it home into another human being...it is personal and I can totally see any average teenager in that situation shutting down certain parts of logic and reason at some point during the course of a gruesome and violent event once it had been set off.
To be fair to both situations....a 12 gauge shotgun puts a good distance between you and another person from which you can still attack and the only reason for using it in said situation was to defend her person and child or otherwise ...her home. When you have a knife in your hand and you slam it home into another human being...it is personal and I can totally see any average teenager in that situation shutting down certain parts of logic and reason at some point during the course of a gruesome and violent event once it had been set off.
SchmitzIT
Well-known member
Nope. I have since educated myself in how to protect myself, though. And while still legally unable to have firearms (well, there's exceptions in case I'd turn to sport-shooting), I will use whatever tools or items at my disposal to neutralize any threat in my home in case I ever happen to end up in that situation.
I can only hope that in case such an event would go wrong, I find a judge who will realize that I did not find myself in such a situation voluntarily, rather than an elitist prick looking down from his ivory tower to only see someone who had every opportunity in life brutally mis-treating a person who is not to blame for attempting to address his poor personal situation by any other means than burglary (which seems to be a typical description of a Dutch judge).
Luckily Denmark seems more sane than that, but yeah. Holland pretty much is lost to political correctness and judges who have lost all sense of reality.
DRE
Well-known member
I'm probably going to google Holland now to figure out how their system came to be like that.
DBA
Well-known member
However if that first shot hadn't stopped him do you think she would have fired again? For example (in my area) if a police officer fires his gun, he shoots to stop the threat, not just one shot (or to injure).
Wow, that has to suck. Granted I live in a nice neighborhood/town, however I like having the right tools for the job, if God forbid the $hit hits the fan. For example I've had to inspect houses that were in the slums (different town), needless to say my Glock was on my side (concealed of course). Did I ever fear for my life? No, however I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.
SchmitzIT
Well-known member
Not so in Holland. The times a police officer draws their guns are so rare that they almost always end up in the papers. There was a case a few years ago where a lunatic went into a police station in Amsterdam and attacked several people with a knife, stabbing them randomly. A female officer, after being stabbed shot the guy, killing him.
The neighbourhood, mostly made up of immigrants, took this as a racist gesture and started rioting. The mayor of Amsterdam, an incompetent Labour guy, and his politicians, rather than backing his police officer and the force, went to drink tea with the parents of the victim, instead of visiting the officers.
Dutch police officers rarely get the support of the local politicians, and when they draw and fire their gun, typically, they'll be crucified by the political leaders to keep the peace.
DBA
Well-known member
Hey you at least convinced me to never visit Holland.
jonsidneyb
Well-known member
I am confused by this, I have been in sports most of my life and have been on a team that produced some olympic medalists. I have seen more fights outside of sports than in sports.
DRE
Well-known member
That's cool.