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native wiki

Discussion in 'XenForo Suggestions' started by dvsDave, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    That's laughable. It costs $60,000 a year to hire one person to maintain a site. Where people like you come up with these low-ball estimates? It's so unrealistic I have to wonder what you are even picturing.

    Regarding WYSIWYG...I actually meant BBCode. I'm not much of a fan of the editors that parse text as you are typing.
    Digital Doctor likes this.
  2. Brogan

    Brogan XenForo Moderator Staff Member

    A plain text editor can be toggled at any time.

    The WYSIWYG editor can be disabled from your user account if you want to use the plain text editor by default.
    krystofo likes this.
  3. fos

    fos Active Member

    I just visited the NuWiki site out of curiosity. A private, own your own, on your own server license costs ------> $14,995.00 with a big comma in there! Either I'm looking at the wrong thing, or you guys and gals are WAY out of my league.

    NuWiki How to buy


    PS. Their web site looks like it is based on MediaWiki.
    Reinhard and krystofo like this.
  4. krystofo

    krystofo New Member

    My $100 estimate was not for building a website, maintaining a website, nor building an add-on. My estimate was for one hour of expert PHP programming to patch an existing add-on as needed to comply with XF updates. Quite possibly my estimate is low, and quite possibly you know much more than I. However, why you get to talking about $60,000, I cannot imagine. I don't know anything about programming but somehow I doubt that JAXEL spent $60,000 worth of his time in MAKING XenCarta...? (More like $16,000 maybe?) So how you get the idea that it will cost thousands just to PATCH XenCarta once a year... Gee I dunno... :confused:

    P.S. Please note: As of 2011.01 Xenforo is still in BETA mode and the importation of a large established forum is specifically NOT advised. See: http://xenforo.com/purchase. P.P.S. According to my understanding, VaultWiki.org is a very well-established open-source program which is very likely to remain supported. So those with well-developed forums might be well-advised to wait until Xenforo is no longer Beta, and to consider VaultWiki which by then is likely to have an XF bridge... As for myself... I do not have a developed forum... Nonetheless...

    I believe that Josh111 has raised an important point, concerning the risks of anyone's online operations being dependant on third-party software add-ons. In response to which, I am asking JAXEL, in his XenCarta thread, about the legal and technical feasibility of maintaining the program in case he suddenly retires. Thank you Josh111 for raising this issue.

    I.e., suppose XenCarta support fails, does not succeed as open-source, and $1000/year cash must be paid to hire a programmer to patch the core XenCarta program, i.e., keep it working. Well, if we can divide that cost by 100 forum-owners who depend on XenCarta, that's not bad. If something like this can be arranged, and if XenCarta is as good as I hope, then I am seriously considering to purchase 2 more Xenforo + XenCarta suites, or 3 total, very soon.

    Thank you for the comment, FOS. I believe that I have similarly pointed out the apparent highbrow price and also the possible lowbrow delivery of NuWiki. See below. My remark of "slightly pricey" was intended to be politely sarcastic. My reaction was the same as yours. I now feel reassured to be assured that maybe there was not something wrong with my eyesight...?

  5. Digital Doctor

    Digital Doctor Well-Known Member

    Nuwiki was a fast and effective wiki from the days gone by. It used to be hosted at nuhit.com (no longer available)

    I think this site: (ht tp://ww w.nu wi ki.com/) is just using noticing traffic searching google for nuwiki. No one here is interested in their type of service. It is some sort of very secure (very expensive) wiki, based on Mediawiki, which we have already determined to be too awkward. Anyone who references nuwiki here is talking about nuhit's nuwiki, not the nu wiki .co m.​

    Xenforo beta is more stable, faster, more user friendly, effective as a forum than vBulletin 4.1 - vB3.x is still quite good software.
    You could worry about "possible" problems with Xenforo or you could live with buggy, slow and ugly vBulletin 4. A new deployment of vB 3.x reamain a reasonable choice for some forum owners who want something crazy specific that only vB3 does - but only if they want to get in bed with a corporate machine called Internet Brands.

    vaultwiki is the best vBulletin wiki for many users. There is a mediawiki clone for vBulletin now and I think it is quite good.
    vaultwiki has A1 support. vaultwiki is not open source. The company that makes vaultwiki uses their own product !

    vaultwiki is designing a version FOR xenforo, I dont think it will be a bridge. I'll report back if I hear different.
    All things considered, if an established forum wants a wiki, xenforo + xencarta is likely the best choice.

    This is an important issue with any addon. I think it will be a very long time until xenforo has (1) a native wiki, (2) a native wiki as good as XenCarta.
    Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
    Ideas: establish a core group of users that could "band together" and keep the wiki alive.
    Please do keep this in mind: Jaxel uses xencarta on the site that he loves. If you think XenCarta with today's feature set is all you'll ever need - Xencarta is already a safe choice.

    I think something like this can be arranged. I would certainly be interested.
  6. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    My use for a wiki revolves around documentation for our products. This consists of pages created both by the staff and tutorials added by the end users. Our system has about 500 pages of documentation.

    Table of Contents
    A table of contents should be generated automatically from headers tags, the way MediaWiki does. This is extremely useful when you have long pages of content that are several screens tall.

    The table of content links would be defined like this:

    Blah blah blah this is talking about this subject.

    {h2}Detail 1{/h2}
    Blah blah blah

    {h2}Detail 2{/h2}
    Blah blah blah

    The code above would generate a table of contents like this:
    -Detail 1
    -Detail 2

    Just see any wikipedia page to see what I am talking about:

    I suggest adding a tag like this:

    This would then link to the page titled "Turtles" in the wiki. Is this necessary? Yes! We are presently creating links in IP.Content that look like this:

    This is extremely hard when we are writing a mass of interconnected pages. Some of the pages might not exist yet, and if they don't we can't add links until we create the page and find out what the ID number is.

    The autolink tag also should included in the forum tags. You will then have conversations like this:

    User: Hi guys, I am having trouble with this feature? What's wrong?
    Staff: Please see the {wiki}feature{/wiki} page for the solution. You can read more about this on the {wiki}SomethingElse{/wiki} page.

    Page Content
    The page content itself can simply be like a forum post with BBCode. I would rather have something reliable and simple, so I am not going to ask for tables and too many formatting features. The only difference is the post content can be edited by anyone with appropriate permissions. A backup system has to be present for each page in case someone messes something up. If this were not possible at first, I would be okay with that, and would just set permissions to staff only.

    Page Organization
    This feature is relatively simple to implement, and would blow every existing wiki system out of the water. MediaWiki and IP.Content have both failed at this, and the solution is very simple. Pages should be arranged in a hierarchy. Let's say "Cats" is a child of the "Animals" page. The breadcrumb links at the top of "Cats" would look like this:

    This simple idea apparently is beyond the ability of MediaWiki to implement. IP.Content has something like this, but it uses "categories" each with a uniform template, instead of an actual page. Presently I am manually creating breadcrumb links in IP.Content that look like this:
    {url=http://www.mysite.com/forum}Home{/url} >
    {url=http://www.mysite.com/forum?app=css&record=53}Wiki{/url} >
    {url=http://www.mysite.com/forum?app=css&record=47}Animals{/url} >

    This has to be added to every single page. We've given up on user-generated content in this system, although they are willing and have provided tons of content under MediaWiki.

    That's really all you need to crush every wiki system out there! It doesn't seem very complicated to me. Why do not forum developers understand the need for this? Customers would flock to XF if you featured this, because no one else provides it, and it's so basic and crucial. PLEASE add this in the way I have described.
  7. Jaxel

    Jaxel Well-Known Member

    Table of Contents
    Done (ex: http://www.8wayrun.com/wiki/talim/)

    My system does not require a [wiki] code in order to do links. Links are AUTOMATICALLY generated if the text finds a page that matches the listed text. You can of course also set limits to the number of auto linked pages. The [wiki] code is used for something else instead. [wiki] will embed a wiki page directly into a post. (ex: http://www.8wayrun.com/threads/8wayrun-com-now-running-the-xenforo-beta.6406/page-3 look for Digital Doctor's I LIKE STRIFE post)

    Page Content
    My wiki builds pages using XenForo's built in BBcode editor. It also keeps edit history, and difference checks.

    Page Organization
    DONE! (ex: http://www.8wayrun.com/wiki/talim-soulcalibur-iv-frame-data/)

    My wiki kicks ass.
  8. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    I don't see any breadcrumb links on your pages. I see two identical links on top of one another that say something about "Frame Data". The top one links to a blank page. I am not sure what the second link goes to or how that is related to the previous page.

    You have dead links all over your wiki, and your content is not very typical of an article, so it's hard to tell what is going on.

    Automatically creating wiki links is interesting. I can see how it would be useful because if a new page is added, all pages mentioning that term will link to it. It also strikes me as potentially dangerous. I suggest including a "wiki" tag and having an option to turn automatic wiki links on and off.

    Your system is very promising, but you need to do more for it to be taken seriously. I suggest setting up a site with a white background theme and articles with more text and hierarchy to show how it would actually work. Your content there is not very good at showing its capabilities.
  9. Jaxel

    Jaxel Well-Known Member

    Breadcrumbs are ABOVE the page title "Home > Wiki"

    The links about Frame Data are "child pages". Neither page is blank, so I dont know what you're talking about.

    I dont see any dead links on the wiki...

    And I dont understand, abusable how?
  10. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    Eh, I was getting one a minute ago.

    Anyways, it appears to be precisely what I described. Your content and color scheme is kind of confusing. It would be nice to see XF adopt this officially.
  11. Jaxel

    Jaxel Well-Known Member

    Try this for a white theme:

    As for more text... huh? Click on one of the child pages for more text.
  12. Jaxel

    Jaxel Well-Known Member

    I updated a script a moment ago, you probably tried to view just as I was uploading the file.
  13. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    I signed up for your forum, but can't find where I can edit wiki pages. Is this allowed?
  14. Jaxel

    Jaxel Well-Known Member

    Editing of pages is reserved for premium supporters only on my forum.
  15. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    Well, it's obvious it was designed by someone who actually uses wikis. Kudos for that.

    Now all XF needs is blogs and a gallery, and I will convert in a heartbeat.
  16. Digital Doctor

    Digital Doctor Well-Known Member

    XenCarta is essentially the first good WYSIWYG wiki. It has a brilliant templating system that you come up with after you've used wikis for a long time and you've run forums for a long time and you understand caching and running a website with performance in mind. I could go on for hours about the OBJECTIVE proof that XenCarta is the best (and has a bright future).
    Wordpress is so good, you'd be making a mistake not using it.
    Wordpress is best of breed stuff.
    Search engines LOVE Wordpress.

    Even if Xenforo makes a killer blog, will it compete with Wordpress and the massive army of Wordpress developers ?
    Wordpress + Xenforo also does this allow you "some" flexibility (if you cant find it in XF, maybe WP has it !).
    I do agree though, when all else is equal try to use Addons made by the Xenforo Team (for stability and integration reasons).
    However, many times all things aren't equal. Wordpress is going to beat any Xenforo Blog for a long time.

    We've talked about that. Galleries aren't crazy essential / etc. And most of them are bloated.
    Ask Jaxel to put images in his Video Gallery. You have seen that coding sweetness by Jaxel ? XenMedio
    I'll bet Jaxel could make the gallery you suggested in 2 days.
    (FYI: I have no idea if he knows anything about image galleries) (Aren't video galleries harder ?)
    Hey man, I thought you weren't a nickel and dimer.
    Do this:
    Xenforo $140.
    Wordpress Integration.
    XenPress theme


    It'll be $140 and you can research the nitty gritty.
    Cheap, quick.
    I'm not seeing any downsides here.
    Note: I won't charge you for this IT consulting (ya can't afford me anyway!) :)
    Reinhard likes this.
  17. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    I don't understand what differentiates a "killer" blog from one that works. It's just a forum post followed by replies in smaller boxes. I don't need anything fancy, just something that works.

    Is there any way to import IPB members and forum posts into XF, and IPB blogs into Wordpress?

    That also means I have to have two skins designed, one for XF and one for WP, and try to get them to look the same.
  18. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    What about having two pages in different places in the hierarchy, both with the same name? I have different products that will have their own sections for documentation, but each product has pages that have the same name, with very different content. Can this Wiki handle that?:

    Wiki > Cars > Wheels
    Wiki > Trucks > Wheels

    I know the example above is silly, but it's just to show the problem.
  19. Jaxel

    Jaxel Well-Known Member

    Thats not how Wikis work. Both Wheels pages will need slightly different titles.
  20. Josh111

    Josh111 Member

    That's problematic for me. I know Wikis conventionally have one title = one page, but conventional wikis don't have a hierarchy of pages.

    Perhaps a wiki page could have a display name? Then the pages in my example could be called Wheels_1 and Wheels_2, and the display name for each would be "Wheels". That would be a relatively simple fix, instead of rewriting the basic functionality of the whole thing.

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