native wiki

[dvsDave]

The biggest blank spot in both VB and IPB is their lack of a native wiki product.

I want a wiki product with multiple namespaces and autolinking of terms from the the forums to the wiki entry. I also want to be able to see a list of terms in the wiki displayed like the memberlist on vb. (characters listed in a row across the top)

You provide that and an import from vbulletin and I'll move in a heartbeat.

 

[Jaxel]

Thank you everyone for a lively discussion that has been infinitely more informative than a dozen "10 best wiki platform" articles. My further comments:

1. I have to agree that MediaWiki / Wikipedia is below par for user-friendliness... but... I just tried demos of other stand-alone wikis, none of them seem much easier except DokuWiki which uses a limited "flat file" database... For a non-forum stand-alone, might as well go with the one that is best known perhaps. However for my non-forum site I am leaning towards TikiWiki because it has a rudimentary forum and blog built-in.

2. NuWiki sounds good but costs $75-150/month or $14,000 outright. Slightly pricey. Ahem. In spite of which, their website loads incredibly slowly, at least today. Not a good sign.

4. How are you all doing with XenCarta? Is it as good as Vault Wiki--which has a good reputation and is soon to have an XF bridge...?

5. At any rate, you all have convinced me that every forum-community as well as blog-community should have an integrated wiki, even if only to develop a few subjects pertaining to the community. Thank you JAXEL for making this possible. Happy New Year to all.

VaultWiki is very good, but I had several problems with it. I used to use VaultWiki with my VB4 site; and it's weaknesses are the reason I created XenCarta in the first place. Most Wiki programs I have found are victims of what is commonly called "Feature Creep"; where features keep getting added that go way beyond the initial scope of the product... often while forgetting to focus on the core requirements for the software (VB4 os a victim of this). VaultWiki was great, but it kept adding too many features that I didn't care about, failed to address simple problems that I did care about.

VaultWiki kept adding things, like namespaces; which in the general use of things, are completely worthless. I ended up having to work AROUND the namespace system, instead of WITHIN it. My Wiki is heavily built on templates; so with VaultWiki, it took a long time to build a single page and it had to build the page on every view. So with my XenCarta Wiki, I took my experiences with VaultWiki and made it heavily reliant on template caching. Its why in my wiki, you have to wipe the template cache if you make any template edits.

XenCarta was designed for websites that DONT need a full fledged wiki. It's very light weight and lacking a majority of the features you see in standard Wikis. I found that most users don't even know that the majority of features even exist, let alone uses them. If you need something more powerful, then I definitely recommend VaultWiki over the others.

 

[krystofo]

Thank you for the kindly and excellent update JAXEL! Everyone should consider using some of your add-ons and paying you a little something every year. (And a "big" something from those who actually make any money, ahem.) I am delighted that you know all about VaultWiki. You have cleared up most questions. If you or anyone has the time to answer again, I am just slightly unclear about a few things...

1. Can XenCarta and VaultWiki both handle 500-1500 pages? I very much prefer your "template memory" and also your avoidance of unnecessary features. But the one feature that might matter (years later) is "capacity." I.e., when you say that VaultWiki is "more powerful"--do you mean only in bells and whistles? Or am I likely to need VaultWiki just because my wiki gets large?

2. For my (non-Xenforo) Wordpress community sites, needing only a 100-page wiki, I am doubtful about the quality of Wordpress wiki plug-ins. For these WP situations of mine, a "bridge" is nonessential, but general user-friendliness is critical. So "if" the WP plug-ins do not work well, then I plan to try DokuWiki. The DokuWiki demo seems to confirm its reputation of being the "one" inexpensive stand-alone wiki that is significantly user-friendly. Only problem is, a limited capacity because of a flat-file database--but hopefully DokuWiki can handle 100 pages...? If you or anyone has experience with DokuWiki, any comments about any aspect would be appreciated.

 

[Digital Doctor]

1. Can XenCarta and VaultWiki both handle 500-1500 pages?

XenCarta is so much faster than vaultwiki. XenCarta wins for speed by a LONGshot.

2. For my (non-Xenforo) Wordpress community sites, needing only a 100-page wiki, I am doubtful about the quality of Wordpress wiki plug-ins.

BuddyPress has a wiki. Not sure how good. Probably not. I am still researching wikis and Wordpress.

For these WP situations of mine, a "bridge" is nonessential, but general user-friendliness is critical. So "if" the WP plug-ins do not work well, then I plan to try DokuWiki. The DokuWiki demo seems to confirm its reputation of being the "one" inexpensive stand-alone wiki that is significantly user-friendly.

A major benefit of XenCarta is that it is WYSIWYG ! I highly doubt your forum users will like Dokuwiki syntax.
Dokuwiki would be fine if just Admins and Mods edited.

Only problem is, a limited capacity because of a flat-file database--but hopefully DokuWiki can handle 100 pages...? If you or anyone has experience with DokuWiki, any comments about any aspect would be appreciated.

Dokuwiki will handle 100 pages well.
I am so surprised how terrible vBulletin, xenforo, Wordpress, Joomla, et. al do with DOCUMENTS / wiki entries !
I've been waiting for years for a good solution. I thought vaultwiki was going to be it ... but it's too clunky and slow (like Mediawiki, the program that inspired it).

Krystofo: XenCarta is what you need !

 

[Jaxel]

1. Can XenCarta and VaultWiki both handle 500-1500 pages?

Because both XenCarta and VaultWiki are database driven, they can handle any number of pages your forum can handle.

VaultWiki doesn't actually have it's own "pages" table in your database. VaultWiki pages are actually just forum threads that have been placed into the wiki namespace. Each page is it's own thread, and each response to the thread is an edit. Then VaultWiki breaks up a thread into it's individual pieces and builds a wiki page based on it.

XenCarta is completely separate from your forum; each page is it's own row in a table. Because of this, its a bit faster since the system doesn't need to analyze threads as pages, but just assumes everything is a page in the first place, which it is. The downside of this of course is that unlike VaultWiki, page edits are not counted in a user's post count.

 

[Digital Doctor]

The downside of this of course is that unlike VaultWiki, page edits are not counted in a user's post count.

Very minor inconvenience.
Wiki edits are more important than a forum post anyway ! Should count alot more to "Reputation".

 

[krystofo]

A major benefit of XenCarta is that it is WYSIWYG ! I highly doubt your forum users will like Dokuwiki syntax.

Oooooo... I didn't catch that fact earlier... Again and again I have read in my all-night wiki-surfing: "if only" there were a WYSIWYG wiki... (And you are right... when I said DokuWiki is user friendly... I meant "relatively" speaking. XenCarta with WYSIWYG zooms way beyond that!)

Because both XenCarta and VaultWiki are database driven, they can handle any number of pages your forum can handle... XenCarta is completely separate from your forum; each page is it's own row in a table...

Wow! WYSIWYG + unlimited pages... My plans are changing... My most ambitious plan is a wiki-built DMOZ-type all-internet directory at Popocracy.com--separate from Emocracy.com--mainly because I assumed to need a wiki program like TikiWiki or MediaWiki... But now it looks like I can build the DMOZ-type directory right alongside the Xenforo community using XenCarta...? (Or at least, worth a try!) And this leads to one more question...

Any chance of using XenCarta as a stand-alone, or as a Wordpress add-on...? Or approximately what might it cost to build such an animal, rhetorically speaking of course...?

 

[Digital Doctor]

Xencarta as a Wordpress Addon could be a legit product. Especially if it works like it does here.
Xencarta for vBulletin is needed as well

Krystofo: I see you've been on a similar path to mine !

My major research findings this week:
an excellent wiki add-on for Vb3
a bridge between Vb3 and Wordpress
Wordpress has automatic updates if running Cpanel
Wordpress 3 can behave like a subhost, placing blogs on independent domains within one installation.
Is Vb4 really all that buggy? I am unclear about this.
Anyway, I think that both VB and XF will get their acts together eventually, one way or the other. Meanwhile I can make do with my Vb3.
If my traffic builds up faster than expected, I can resort to IPB... errr... IPB works at least, doesn't it...?

Glad you avoided the vBulletin trainwreck, and came aboard the good ship Xenforo.

Xenforo + XenCarta is already better than any vB3/4 option.

My most ambitious plan is a wiki-built DMOZ-type all-internet directory at Popocracy.com
DMOZ-type directory

I think I know what you mean.
Could you outline more specifics on what it will be and how you want it to work. either in another thread on xf.com or WDF.net ? PM if you do.
I'll try to gauge your needs.
I am collecting everyone's wiki needs and interests, so I can understand what people want.

 

[Digital Doctor]

A major benefit of XenCarta is that it is WYSIWYG ! I highly doubt your forum users will like Dokuwiki syntax. Dokuwiki would be fine if just Admins and Mods edited.

The above is easy dokuwiki syntax. adding images and the like is much harder.
I think only some Mods and Admins could you Dokuwiki

 

[Josh111]

MediaWiki is awful for images and files. The WYSIWYG editor a forum uses is a lot better, in my experience. IPB has *sort of* a wiki system, but it's obvious their devs don't understand what a wiki is for, and don't consider it important.

This feature is absolutely critical for me, and I would pay any amount of money I could afford to get it.

 

[Paul B]

This feature is absolutely critical for me, and I would pay any amount of money I could afford to get it.

$140 is all it will take

http://xenforo.com/purchase/

 

[Josh111]

Show me the wiki.

 

[Paul B]

Show me the wiki.

http://xenforo.com/community/threads/8wayrun-com-xencarta-lite-wiki.7589/

 

[Josh111]

I will never use any third-party mods or applications. I have never had a single third-party mod with any forum software that didn't eventually stop working, contained serious bugs I discover after a month of usage, get abandoned, etc. I run a large commercial website and need someone I can hold responsible if my forum software doesn't work correctly.

 

[Digital Doctor]

MediaWiki is awful for images and files.

Awful isn't strong enough a word.

The WYSIWYG editor a forum uses is a lot better, in my experience.

Definitely.
Xencarta is the first usable wiki with WYSIWYG.

IPB has *sort of* a wiki system, but it's obvious their devs don't understand what a wiki is for, and don't consider it important.

I evaulated it. My impression is the same as yours.

This feature is absolutely critical for me

Critical ? You must be dying then. As I doubt you have a current solution that is good, as there are no good solutions. I've looked "for years". And looked. Definitely no other wikis are able to insert wiki content into a post.

and I would pay any amount of money I could afford to get it.

Any ?
I've added you to my "wiki list" (which is growing and growing).
The world needs a good wiki / documents engine.
There is a very significant untapped market here. All previous wikis are terrible.
And I know with a little work, a good wiki will be absolute killer SEO. If you assign some people to keep the wiki up to date.
Give it 6 months and it will be SEO GOLD. Gold Gold Gold. It's going to make forum posts look bad !
More importantly, a good COMMUNITY documents engine (wiki) is very useful.

I will never use any third-party mods or applications.

Never say never It'll be a VERY long time before Xenforo releases a native wiki, if ever.

I have never had a single third-party mod with any forum software that didn't eventually stop working, contained serious bugs I discover after a month of usage, get abandoned, etc. I run a large commercial website and need someone I can hold responsible if my forum software doesn't work correctly.

#1) Jaxel uses his own wiki. That's important. His site is the best Xenforo site so far. He'll be updating his site well before you
#2) Any amount of money ? Jaxel's unemployed. I suspect a deal could be reached. The guy is online 24/7/365 with no signs of stopping. Support seems very easy. One reason why the current iteration of XenCarta won't break is there are very few dependencies on Xenforo (unlike vaultwiki). Try this: Pay him monthly via Paypal. If he slips up, don't pay him that month. Setup a fair plan. I think you'll be surprised at the level of support.
#3) This is a unique time, Xenforo is a unique platform, Jaxel is a unique programmer with unique experience in wikis. This unique opportunity needs to be seized !

More later. I gotta do some work
Xenforo + 2011 + WYSIWYG Community Wiki-based Documents engine (Jaxel) + key people = Awesome.
And I haven't even discussed all the killer killer wiki ideas. Can't wait.

 

[Josh111]

Critical ? You must be dying then.

Pretty much. We're using IPB and creating fake breadcrumb and article links by hand, for hundreds of pages of documentation. So it's just a little better than editing raw HTML.

It's very tedious, but it's the only way to get searchable pages that look decent.

 

[Digital Doctor]

IPBwiki ?

 

[Digital Doctor]

XenCarta is already better than that.
Just to make sure you realize Jaxel's skills, he made XenCarta in a few days.
Of course, that was easy as he's been using/studying/thinking about wikis for years. He also has lots of practical knowledge and experience running Forum Based Communities.

 

[Josh111]

I tried IPBwiki and it just ruined my MediaWiki installation. Even if it worked, MediaWiki is confusing for my users, and it looks totally inconsistent with the site.

That wiki looks nice. Why doesn't XenForo hire him? In any case, I need to wait for blogs and a gallery to be supported.

 

[krystofo]

$140 is all it will take
http://xenforo.com/purchase/

Plug! Plug! Moderator! Arrest that man!

I have never had a single third-party mod with any forum software that didn't eventually stop working, contained serious bugs I discover after a month of usage, get abandoned, etc. I run a large commercial website...

I think the same way. (Except I am not yet an "established success.") And I am also concerned about basing my foundation on a third-party mod for a beta-level forum made by one person who might take a vacation... However... (a) given the current atmosphere of Xenforo, I think it likely that someone will step in if the wiki support is dropped... (b) If not, possibly only $100/year to pay a PHP expert to keep it running. So if you have a "large commercial website" and "will pay anything affordable for a good wiki"--I say this is a bargain. And a stand-alone wiki is less likely to be maintained so cheaply. And maybe in exchange for each $50 donation, JAXEL might offer permanent rights to alter the program for your own usage IF he should drop his support. (Or maybe it is already "open source"? I am just guessing about these legalities.)

...And I know with a little work, a good wiki will be absolute killer SEO.... And I haven't even discussed all the killer killer wiki ideas. Can't wait.

DIGITAL DOCTOR--I am delighted that we seem to agree so much. And also that you have shared your serious research, undergone with much more expertise than myself... And I share your enthusiasm... However... just like to point out that SEO is like Blackjack. If you have a great SEO idea, or card counting system, best keep it to yourself. It becomes useless the moment too many people are doing it.

Regarding your request for suggestions for the perfect wiki...
a) According to some sources, WYSIWYG can be a nuisance and can slow downloading significantly as extra code builds up.
b) Obvious solution for this: use BB code. Not a true WYSIWYG, but faster to code and no build-up.
c) One special suggestion for WYSIWYG or BB code parsing:

--When someone types http://anysite.com or www.anysite.com
--This should NOT parse to: [u r l]http://anysite.com [/u r l]
--But instead parse to: [u r l=h t t p: //anysite.com]http://anysite.com [/u r l]
--...and with the active link text in blue as shown...
--...because... then I can instruct people who are hopeless with code to "just type the url and then click 'preview'"...
--...then... after clicking "preview" they can be taught to "edit the blue text as desired"... thus successfully creating a hyperlink text even with no idea what is a hyperlink text.

Of course, in most forums, we can also "select" the link text and click the "chain" icon... and this should remain an option in the ideal wiki... But please understand, some people just never catch on to this. Anyway, if only everyone thus can make a hyperlink, then I hope, everyone can join in editing a wiki. Just a suggestion.

 

[Digital Doctor]

The Wiki would be "legitimate" good SEO.
As the wiki would be very good content.
As much as SEO trickery is good .......

CONTENT is King.

• Maybe I shouldn't call the wiki Good SEO, it would be good content.
• (well, some Long Tail SEO tweaking would help via AzuCloud - Long Tail SEO Cloud )

Wiki = absolute killer SEO *Content*

Why would a KILLER wiki provide good Content ?
It can be kept up to date. Why ? Your entire Community of Posters will be able to EDIT it ! If you member can Post to a Forum - they can edit the wiki

More Notables:
- have your read about XenCarta's wiki templating ... it is excellent.

WYSIWYG
XenCarta already uses BBCode (I think of BBCode as WYSIWYG)
But the wiki has options for PHP ! Think Dynamic Content for your wiki ! You can use HTML as well.

(Content is King)