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Interview with Shawn Hogan (Digital Point)

Walter

Well-known member
#1

Digital Doctor

Well-known member
#4
Typo:
Answer:

Well we don't change things for sale
sake
of changing them.
Obviously having Digitalpoint being an advocate for Xenforo is great for Xenforo. To me, knowing Shawn was "going Xenforo" was more important than IGN using Xenforo. However, the story isn't all rosy.

You should have asked him why he was "hours" away from converting to Xenforo but stopped. All the work he did to move vB to XF ... was abandoned at the 11th hour.

 

craigiri

Well-known member
#6
Dang, the eBay story linked to in that interview is great!

What an example of corporate greed from the bottom to the top...it seems like the entire culture there was one without much of a moral compass. Good read.
 

digitalpoint

Well-known member
#9
You should have asked him why he was "hours" away from converting to Xenforo but stopped. All the work he did to move vB to XF ... was abandoned at the 11th hour.
Not sure who told you we were hours from migrating to XenForo, but we were never hours from doing it. Nor were any plans we had for XenForo abandoned at *any* hour.

I've always said if we do switch platforms, we would do it when we are ready (primarily meaning no loss of features of the current site). The fact that our site has a forum is secondary to the rest of the site (the site was around for about 10 years before the forum, and the forum was started primarily because we needed a support venue for our existing products/tools). What this means is we have ~1.5M lines of custom code written around the vBulletin framework that would need to be rewritten for the XenForo framework. Not something that can be changed with the flip of a switch.

That being said, we do have a fairly impressive XenForo installation running on our dev servers...



We have a lot of complex tools/products that we can't just shut down (they have to be rewritten), the largest being our Keyword Tracker and Digital Point Ads platform.

We've also had to rebuild systems in XenForo that are there, but lacking in functionality vs. what we currently have. For example search... we need the ability to search for users, user notes, conversations, etc. which we've done in XF:



Then we had to tackle things that users will never see. For example the normal import process is too slow (can't take the site down for days/weeks), and doesn't import everything. So I built an importer that can do it in about 30 minutes (including stuff that normally is ignored like moderator/deletion logs, daily stats, "friendships", Facebook Connect links, user upgrades, what threads/forums they have read, warnings, bans, etc.)... Which is almost 18M posts, 620k users, 2.9M threads, etc.

Code:
#################################################
### Digital Point A.R.F.I. vB4 -> XF Importer ###
#################################################
 
1 - Posts
2 - Users
3 - Threads
4 - Private Messages
5 - Avatars
6 - Attachments
7 - Forums
8 - Miscellaneous
9 - Everything
 
Make Selection [1-9]: 9
 
exporting posts...
          [forking process for posts]
          posts IPs (17,889,218 records in 245.07s)...
          likes (379,074 records in 2.85s)...
Total time for posts: 247.92s
 
exporting users...
          [forking process for users & user authenticate]
          user external auth (15,185 records in 7.11s)...
          user follow (200,960 records in 0.67s)...
          user ignored (10,525 records in 0.18s)...
          user notes (29,833 records in 3.18s)...
          user options (620,660 records in 5.60s)...
          user profile (620,660 records in 57.19s)...
          user privacy (620,660 records in 7.07s)...
          user warnings (393,713 records in 104.62s)...
          user bans (23,622 records in 3.49s)...
          warning action triggers (23,622 records in 2.62s)...
          user field (126,072 records in 13.09s)...
          user registration IPs (620,660 records in 7.26s)...
          user account confirmation IPs (188,222 records in 4.72s)...
          user change log (423,414 records in 6.92s)...
          user change log IPs (297,353 records in 3.56s)...
          profile posts (52,596 records in 1.42s)...
          profile post IPs (48,580 records in 3.21s)...
          user upgrades active (542 records in 0.03s)...
          user upgrades expired (1,751 records in 0.04s)...
          user upgrades log (6,427 records in 0.38s)...
Total time for users: 232.36s
*** Don't forget to rebuild user cache ***
 
 
exporting threads...
          [forking process for threads]
          watched threads (10,602,569 records in 26.89s)...
          polls (238,323 records in 46.17s)...
          thread read (299,867 records in 3.72s)...
Total time for threads: 49.89s
*** Don't forget to rebuild poll cache ***
 
 
exporting private messages...
          [forking process for conversation master]
          conversation message (552,557 records in 421.57s)...
          conversation recipient (824,245 records in 16.57s)...
          conversation user (824,245 records in 16.14s)...
          conversation IPs (539,583 records in 8.67s)...
Total time for private messages: 463.06s
 
performing avatar diff...
        53 users with new avatars
17878 140295 162865 198457 205262 383801 395367 427658 439654 457831 477267 662328 669057 677252 677938 678937 680150 680545 681464 687985 689006 689693 689813 689840 689848 689849 689879 689886 689916 689938 689953 689975 689983 689990 690006 690010 690021 690024 690025 690028 690036 690052 690105 690108 690143 690171 690173 690180 690182 690229 690253 690277 690305
        1 users with deleted avatars
Total time for avatars: 35.98s
 
performing attachment diff...
        108 new attachments
88745 88746 88748 88749 88750 88751 88752 88753 88754 88755 88756 88757 88759 88760 88762 88763 88764 88765 88766 88768 88770 88773 88774 88775 88776 88777 88778 88779 88780 88781 88782 88783 88784 88785 88786 88787 88788 88789 88790 88791 88792 88793 88794 88796 88797 88800 88801 88802 88803 88804 88805 88807 88811 88812 88813 88814 88815 88816 88817 88818 88819 88820 88821 88822 88823 88824 88825 88826 88827 88829 88830 88831 88832 88833 88836 88837 88838 88839 88840 88841 88842 88843 88845 88846 88847 88848 88849 88852 88853 88854 88855 88856 88858 88861 88862 88864 88866 88867 88868 88869 88870 88871 88872 88873 88874 88875 88876 88877
        updating attachment view count
Total time for attachments: 9.53s
 
exporting forums...
          nodes (147 records in 0.26s)...
          forums (140 records in 0.13s)...
          link forums (10 records in 0.13s)...
          forum read (12,482 records in 0.18s)...
          watched forums (3,154 records in 0.27s)...
Total time for forums: 0.97s
 
exporting micellaneous stuff...
          deletion log (944,384 records in 11.62s)...
          moderator log (856,726 records in 39.17s)...
          daily stats (18,302 records in 15.42)...
          directory categories (12 records in 0.02)...
          directory entries (341 records in 0.11)...
 
Total time for micellaneous stuff: 62.47s
 
          [waiting on process for users & user authenticate] DONE.
          [waiting on process for conversation master] DONE.
          [waiting on process for threads] DONE.
          [waiting on process for posts] DONE.
 
    Grand Total For Everything: 31 minutes, 19 seconds (63,231,799 records)
On top of it stuff custom to just our site, I've had to build stuff that XenForo is missing (I've built master/slave DB support for it, user notes, post edit history, user change logs, etc.) And I've had to "fix" things that I consider broken (like various issues with TinyMCE).

And then I even built a ton of stuff that I've wanted to build for the existing site, that I just haven't done yet. For example users can link all sorts of third party accounts (6 of them) for various reasons, added full support for rel="author"...




and yet.....he hasn't turned Digital Point onto Xenforo and he snarls at anyone who asks.....

One would advise Shawn to take his own medicine before he looks anymore foolish...
Huh? What medicine is that? I don't get pissed off at people for not doing something fast enough on their site that really doesn't affect me. lol

And I don't snarl at anyone that asks. But if people start acting like we somehow owe them a definitive answer about when exactly (or even IF for that matter), then yeah... I don't really have much to say. If *I* knew, I could say, but since I don't... and I'm not a psychic. We are far more interested in something being done right/well than something being done by a certain date. If my *actual* best answer for a question is "I don't know", and that answer isn't good enough for whoever is asking, I'm not sure what else to say. I could make something up, but then I would be lying. {shrug}

I've never said anything other than we would not move to XenForo unless we were ready (again... mostly meaning we don't lose existing site functionality). If you (or anyone else) would like to assist, great. :)
 

0xym0r0n

Well-known member
#10
I assume some people have NOT taken the time read Shawn's posts about DP to XF. If they had, then his post would be unnecessary as he has stated it numerous times before. IF you go to DP you'll see him shed positive light on XF as well. It's not like he's abandoning it and it's not like the world of XF depends on Shawn either lol.

Not trying to step on toes but I love a lot of things about DP and love the creator/staff involved, so I feel I gotta jump in on this. Even though it probably doesn't need my support lol.
 

craigiri

Well-known member
#11
I always remember, off the cuff, hearing about the million+ lines of code needed. That would be quite a job. If something is working, there is little reason to rush to change it. It would be a whole 'nother thing if his VBB site was quickly breaking apart and XF had all the answers "in stock".
 

Adam Howard

Well-known member
#12
As always, I'm hoping some of those add-ons are generally released to the public here (not all, as I imagine you have to have some advantage). If any of them end up paid, I'd like to see a payment alternative than just paypal (for those of us who can't use it... any alternative will do).

FYI: I've visited your site and never could find the link to your forums on your site. Always thought that was odd.
 

0xym0r0n

Well-known member
#13
I always remember, off the cuff, hearing about the million+ lines of code needed. That would be quite a job. If something is working, there is little reason to rush to change it. It would be a whole 'nother thing if his vBulletin site was quickly breaking apart and XF had all the answers "in stock".
Yup that one of the things I always keep in mind when I visit DP and say "Awww I wish Shawn would convert!"
I have to keep in mind all that work he has done with VB!
 

digitalpoint

Well-known member
#14
As always, I'm hoping some of those add-ons are generally released to the public here (not all, as I imagine you have to have some advantage). If any of them end up paid, I'd like to see a payment alternative than just paypal (for those of us who can't use it... any alternative will do).
Some will... but right now I'm just focusing on getting stuff done for us first. Trying to not get sidetracked with things like packaging up and supporting add-ons for others (at least until WE get to use them too).

FYI: I've visited your site and never could find the link to your forums on your site. Always thought that was odd.
Well, the main home page hasn't changed really since before we had a forum. :) One of these days... but so many other things are more important to work on.
 

Shelley

Well-known member
#15
Not sure who told you we were hours from migrating to XenForo, but we were never hours from doing it. Nor were any plans we had for XenForo abandoned at *any* hour.

I've always said if we do switch platforms, we would do it when we are ready (primarily meaning no loss of features of the current site). The fact that our site has a forum is secondary to the rest of the site (the site was around for about 10 years before the forum, and the forum was started primarily because we needed a support venue for our existing products/tools). What this means is we have ~1.5M lines of custom code written around the vBulletin framework that would need to be rewritten for the XenForo framework. Not something that can be changed with the flip of a switch.

That being said, we do have a fairly impressive XenForo installation running on our dev servers...



We have a lot of complex tools/products that we can't just shut down (they have to be rewritten), the largest being our Keyword Tracker and Digital Point Ads platform.

We've also had to rebuild systems in XenForo that are there, but lacking in functionality vs. what we currently have. For example search... we need the ability to search for users, user notes, conversations, etc. which we've done in XF:



Then we had to tackle things that users will never see. For example the normal import process is too slow (can't take the site down for days/weeks), and doesn't import everything. So I built an importer that can do it in about 30 minutes (including stuff that normally is ignored like moderator/deletion logs, daily stats, "friendships", Facebook Connect links, user upgrades, what threads/forums they have read, warnings, bans, etc.)... Which is almost 18M posts, 620k users, 2.9M threads, etc.

Code:
#################################################
### Digital Point A.R.F.I. vB4 -> XF Importer ###
#################################################
 
1 - Posts
2 - Users
3 - Threads
4 - Private Messages
5 - Avatars
6 - Attachments
7 - Forums
8 - Miscellaneous
9 - Everything
 
Make Selection [1-9]: 9
 
exporting posts...
          [forking process for posts]
          posts IPs (17,889,218 records in 245.07s)...
          likes (379,074 records in 2.85s)...
Total time for posts: 247.92s
 
exporting users...
          [forking process for users & user authenticate]
          user external auth (15,185 records in 7.11s)...
          user follow (200,960 records in 0.67s)...
          user ignored (10,525 records in 0.18s)...
          user notes (29,833 records in 3.18s)...
          user options (620,660 records in 5.60s)...
          user profile (620,660 records in 57.19s)...
          user privacy (620,660 records in 7.07s)...
          user warnings (393,713 records in 104.62s)...
          user bans (23,622 records in 3.49s)...
          warning action triggers (23,622 records in 2.62s)...
          user field (126,072 records in 13.09s)...
          user registration IPs (620,660 records in 7.26s)...
          user account confirmation IPs (188,222 records in 4.72s)...
          user change log (423,414 records in 6.92s)...
          user change log IPs (297,353 records in 3.56s)...
          profile posts (52,596 records in 1.42s)...
          profile post IPs (48,580 records in 3.21s)...
          user upgrades active (542 records in 0.03s)...
          user upgrades expired (1,751 records in 0.04s)...
          user upgrades log (6,427 records in 0.38s)...
Total time for users: 232.36s
*** Don't forget to rebuild user cache ***
 
 
exporting threads...
          [forking process for threads]
          watched threads (10,602,569 records in 26.89s)...
          polls (238,323 records in 46.17s)...
          thread read (299,867 records in 3.72s)...
Total time for threads: 49.89s
*** Don't forget to rebuild poll cache ***
 
 
exporting private messages...
          [forking process for conversation master]
          conversation message (552,557 records in 421.57s)...
          conversation recipient (824,245 records in 16.57s)...
          conversation user (824,245 records in 16.14s)...
          conversation IPs (539,583 records in 8.67s)...
Total time for private messages: 463.06s
 
performing avatar diff...
        53 users with new avatars
17878 140295 162865 198457 205262 383801 395367 427658 439654 457831 477267 662328 669057 677252 677938 678937 680150 680545 681464 687985 689006 689693 689813 689840 689848 689849 689879 689886 689916 689938 689953 689975 689983 689990 690006 690010 690021 690024 690025 690028 690036 690052 690105 690108 690143 690171 690173 690180 690182 690229 690253 690277 690305
        1 users with deleted avatars
Total time for avatars: 35.98s
 
performing attachment diff...
        108 new attachments
88745 88746 88748 88749 88750 88751 88752 88753 88754 88755 88756 88757 88759 88760 88762 88763 88764 88765 88766 88768 88770 88773 88774 88775 88776 88777 88778 88779 88780 88781 88782 88783 88784 88785 88786 88787 88788 88789 88790 88791 88792 88793 88794 88796 88797 88800 88801 88802 88803 88804 88805 88807 88811 88812 88813 88814 88815 88816 88817 88818 88819 88820 88821 88822 88823 88824 88825 88826 88827 88829 88830 88831 88832 88833 88836 88837 88838 88839 88840 88841 88842 88843 88845 88846 88847 88848 88849 88852 88853 88854 88855 88856 88858 88861 88862 88864 88866 88867 88868 88869 88870 88871 88872 88873 88874 88875 88876 88877
        updating attachment view count
Total time for attachments: 9.53s
 
exporting forums...
          nodes (147 records in 0.26s)...
          forums (140 records in 0.13s)...
          link forums (10 records in 0.13s)...
          forum read (12,482 records in 0.18s)...
          watched forums (3,154 records in 0.27s)...
Total time for forums: 0.97s
 
exporting micellaneous stuff...
          deletion log (944,384 records in 11.62s)...
          moderator log (856,726 records in 39.17s)...
          daily stats (18,302 records in 15.42)...
          directory categories (12 records in 0.02)...
          directory entries (341 records in 0.11)...
 
Total time for micellaneous stuff: 62.47s
 
          [waiting on process for users & user authenticate] DONE.
          [waiting on process for conversation master] DONE.
          [waiting on process for threads] DONE.
          [waiting on process for posts] DONE.
 
    Grand Total For Everything: 31 minutes, 19 seconds (63,231,799 records)
On top of it stuff custom to just our site, I've had to build stuff that XenForo is missing (I've built master/slave DB support for it, user notes, post edit history, user change logs, etc.) And I've had to "fix" things that I consider broken (like various issues with TinyMCE).

And then I even built a ton of stuff that I've wanted to build for the existing site, that I just haven't done yet. For example users can link all sorts of third party accounts (6 of them) for various reasons, added full support for rel="author"...




Huh? What medicine is that? I don't get pissed off at people for not doing something fast enough on their site that really doesn't affect me. lol

And I don't snarl at anyone that asks. But if people start acting like we somehow owe them a definitive answer about when exactly (or even IF for that matter), then yeah... I don't really have much to say. If *I* knew, I could say, but since I don't... and I'm not a psychic. We are far more interested in something being done right/well than something being done by a certain date. If my *actual* best answer for a question is "I don't know", and that answer isn't good enough for whoever is asking, I'm not sure what else to say. I could make something up, but then I would be lying. {shrug}

I've never said anything other than we would not move to XenForo unless we were ready (again... mostly meaning we don't lose existing site functionality). If you (or anyone else) would like to assist, great. :)
Finally. some 1.2 info. any timeline when 1.2 will be released? :p
 

Shelley

Well-known member
#18
Hell if I know... although I do hope it comes out before *too* long, as there are a couple things I know are coming in 1.2 that I'd rather not waste my time building myself. :)
I was just joking about that and viewing that impressive list of yours :)

BTW, i know you can't be happy with the smiley solution is one of those add-ons you don't want to build a smiley manager solution?
 

digitalpoint

Well-known member
#20
I was just joking about that and viewing that impressive list of yours :)

BTW, i know you can't be happy with the smiley solution is one of those add-ons you don't want to build a smiley manager solution?
Smilie system seems fine to me to be honest. What's wrong with it exactly (maybe I'm ignorant)?