Implementing permissions across multiple user groups

[Paul B]

The unregistered group is the permissions you want guests and unconfirmed members to have.

 

[Alternadiv]

I'm using the demo to test some things and noticed the unregistered group has questionable permissions set to yes as default. Edit profile and add media items without approval, for example. Just checking if this is for a purpose or if it's just an oversight?

 

[Paul B]

The unregistered user group also applies to unconfirmed registered accounts, hence why the group title is Unregistered / unconfirmed .

So it's as designed.

 

[Alternadiv]

The unregistered user group also applies to unconfirmed registered accounts, hence why the group title is Unregistered / unconfirmed .

So it's as designed.

Ah, I never put that together as I don't use email confirmations. Makes sense, thanks.

 

[Nicolas FR]

What's confusing about permissions and the way they've been designed (all members are in the Registered group) is that a YES permission inherited from the Registered group defaults to NO in a secondary group instead of be clearly stated YES inherited. I mean if the Registered group has the Post messages permission all the other groups should have the Post messages permission marked YES Inherited rather than NO.

 

[Paul B]

The permission values in the user group reflect what has been set in the user group.

If you want to see the final permission value, use the analyser.

 

[Nicolas FR]

I've been using permissions via groups for a long time and after going through this resource several times I no longer have any doubts about how they work. I'm just saying that for a new user, indicating YES Inherited instead of NO in secondary groups would be easier to understand how they work. If the permissions were intuitive in their operation, this resource would certainly not be necessary.

How many questions are asked about this in the forum? Hundreds and hundreds, probably there is something to do there even if I could agree that it is not a priority. The popularity of macOS or iOS is based on the intuitiveness, ease of use of these operating systems. XF permissions are a source of errors, misunderstandings, confusion... It's hard to deny this fact.

 

[Paul B]

You are conflating two different things.

 

[Nicolas FR]

I'm sure you're right ! But what ?

 

[Mr Lucky]

I'm just saying that for a new user, indicating YES Inherited instead of NO in secondary groups would be easier to understand how they work.

I don’t understand how this would work. The current system does seem intuitive (unless you had your brain messed with by vbulletin)

I only see it as a stack of user groups with one inheriting from another group below when there is a clear promotion but that isn’t really the way it works.

I think of all groups having equal “weight” so if what you are are suggesting happens, a single yes in any group would mean all other groups would have to say yes for that permission, whether or not you think of them as a progression from one to another.

And likewise for a never which overrides a yes.

So it’s the difference between inheriting lower down permissions and overriding on a per permission basis.

To get an overview then analyse permissions is perfect.

The only time there is an actual inherit is a forum permission.

 

[Nicolas FR]

You sound like an experienced admin, but I was trying to put myself in the shoes of a new admin who is new to XF and especially the permissions system. If it is powerful, there is no denying it, it is anything but intuitive. Intuitive means it works without question, it just makes sense, but it doesn't. The number of questions about it in the forum, this resource (which starts with: Having logged in to quite a few installations to resolve permission issues, it's clear that a lot of people haven't quite grasped the concept.) and the fact that Brogan links this resource in his signature proves that this system is not intuitive and creates a lot of misunderstandings and confusion.

But it's not an attack against XF, I'm just making this observation. It's just my point of view.
I wouldn't want to offend any susceptibility, some people seem on edge right now...

 

[Mr Lucky]

The number of questions about it in the forum,

I would imagine a huge percentage of those questions are from people (like me) who did not originally read the manual.

Intuitive to me means that it's obvious how things work without any prior knowledge. It's a bit like getting an IKEA flatpack and thinking you can put it together without reading the instructions.

I do however believe there could be useability improvements in this regard, like help balloons that pop up for new users so that when they first go the the permissions page there could be a dismissable notice explaining a few basic things and linking to the instructions.

It would also be good if the primary group was by default fixed at being registered (with an advance option to change this for whatever reason). But I suppose this would could problems with imports. Again, during import there could be a huge warning to explain the system. As I said (or hoped to imply) above, I think the biggest problems come from vbulletin imports. There is no way the permissions can automatically be adopted - it writes manual finagling and knowledge of a new system.

Also bear in mind that "intuitive" often means "why doesn't it work like my old system?" Well, it's actually way better so it can't work like that. It took me a while to actually appreciate the system, but then the lightbulb suddenly came on after I read the manuals (at least twice though )

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suppose, to be fair to new users, the word "No" has a specific meaning which isn't accurate in this context. "Not set" or "Inherit" or another passive term might be more "intuitive". As with most things, once you have actually RT(F)M and tried it out a few times, it does become like riding a bike.....