Gun control

[Neil E.]

I wonder how many hundreds/thousands of people a single squad of trained service personel would be able to take out before civilians could subdue them. I wonder how handguns and rifles would stop an apache helicopter. Or how close people could get to a hummer with a M2 BMG sat on top of it.

Read many military history books? Guerilla tactics are very effective. Sure there are massive casualties, but fighting for your own survival changes your outlook and prompts actions the average person would not consider. Look at recent world events, the "rebels" have accomplished a lot. Steal weapons from the military and get the job done. Fighting for an ideal creates a driving force that should not be underestimated. Have you forgotten that written "history" is mostly the documentation of conflict?

 

[RickM]

One thing is for sure after reading this thread is that it just shows how divided the world and people are as a whole. This country became significantly more polarized after the election and this is another one of those topics that is equally divisive. I hold my second amendment right to be as sacred as any amendment because that is what our forefathers fought and died to protect. Call it heritage or nostalgia or whatever you like but for me its what this country is founded on IMO.

Whilst I think of it, this quote applies perfectly here:

The 2nd amendment is about bearing arms. Guns are not explicitly mentioned.

There is no reason to think they are appropriate in today's world. If the 2nd amendment never existed, it wouldn't be enacted today. That's the sign that it needs to change - our laws need to be able to continually justify their existence. This one, in its current state and with its modern implications, can't.

 

[BGL]

Guerilla tactics are very effective.

As far as weapons go, stealing military weapons is key so even the home owned assault weapons are of little value in the Red Dawn guerrilla war scenario central to the gun lobby marketing campaign.

Founders had it right, make sure everyone is able to serve in the well regulated militia (National Guard) so we do not develop an elite professional army that serves only itself. That is the real danger the founders were concerned about and that is what we face today with a "professional" army that pushes for wars (last 30 years of constant war for example) to gain funding ($1T a year last 30 years) and promotions for its professional members.

But that's another problem. We can and should stop the 30,000 needless gun deaths in US by emulating the successful gun policies of the other developed nations.

 

[mike os]

Could you point me to, say...3 UK news sources showing gun crimes that happened yesterday?

Gun crimes dont happen in the UK because you cant get a gun - it's that simple.

you cant get a gun in the uk? what planet are you from?

 

[mike os]

while outlawing something may seem a good idea, soetimes it just does not work.... try hard drugs, murder, child abuse, domestic violence...

 

[Slavik]

Read many military history books? Guerilla tactics are very effective. Sure there are massive casualties, but fighting for your own survival changes your outlook and prompts actions the average person would not consider. Look at recent world events, the "rebels" have accomplished a lot. Steal weapons from the military and get the job done. Fighting for an ideal creates a driving force that should not be underestimated. Have you forgotten that written "history" is mostly the documentation of conflict?

Better than most. As for recent world events. I think you HIGHLY underestimate how much first world help the rebels actually received and without that help, would have been doomed to almost certain failure.

 

[RickM]

you cant get a gun in the uk? what planet are you from?

Sorry I forgot that we can just walk into Tesco's and pick one up

No. You cant get a gun in the UK unless:

1- You belong to an active gun club
2- You pass a set of strict requirements (including a house visit by a firearms officer, and personality references from multiple people)
3- Your local police are nformed, and have ok'd the issuing of a license.
4- Provide a suitable (verified and checked) gun cabinet with a lock, which must be secured to a solid brick wall
5- You must show good reason for possession of each and every firearm you own, and if it's believed that you no longer have good reason for owning a firearm, it will be taken off of you.

Even then, it's only allowed to be a shotgun or a .22 caliber rifle. You're not allowed to own a handgun, semi-automatic, etc and you are NEVER allowed to take it out in public.

Your license also expires every 5 years, and is £50 to apply for.

So no. No you cant get a gun. At least not one for self defence or any real use.

 

[SchmitzIT]

There are many news sources(starting Dec. 18)brought about NRA breaks silence about the shooting, made a statement and scheduled a major news conference for Friday, and indicated that NRA laid groundwork against new gun laws.

This time, it is not a political agenda issue, it is a national crisis issue. When parents don't feel safe to send kids to school, and people don't feel safe to go to movie theatres etc., which other developed country on earth has this similar issue at present?

You are not reading what I said.

You were the one who made the statement that the NRA and gun lovers instantly abused the massacre to start a political discussion about gun control. Your own link showed that it was actually the opposite. It was not the gun lovers or the NRA. In fact, the NRA made a brief statement the 18th that they would hold a news conference.

Regardless of when they released their statement, the fact that the earliest date you could find was the 18th directly contradicts your earlier statement that the NRA is trying to politically abuse the dead kids. Or, reworded, you are offended at the NRA for something they did not do.

Could you point me to, say...3 UK news sources showing gun crimes that happened yesterday?

Gun crimes dont happen in the UK because you cant get a gun - it's that simple.

Here's some gun related news articles from today's news in Holland, where you also cannot get guns.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21172577/__Politie_zoekt_getuigen_Osdorp__.html - The police is looking for witnesses to a shooting yesterday in Amsterdam.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21172573/__Vonnis_liquidatieproces_op_29_januari__.html - The court will reach a verdict regarding a big liquidation case related to organized crime.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171584/__Gezochte_auto_blijkt_van_politie__.html - The police is looking for a suspect in a liquidation. (Turns out that the car they are looking for is a police car. Really make you feel safe knowing these guys are protecting you from criminals, eh?)

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171803/__Juwelier_gewond__.html - Jeweler got hurt in a robbery. Not sure guns were involved. People nearby reported hearing gunshots, the police denies shots were fired.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21172664/__Politie_vindt_wapens_in_huis__.html - The police found two guns searching a house.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171671/__Betrapte_dief_trekt_pistool__.html - Thief confronted by store staff pulls a gun and threatens to shoot staff.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171009/__Vrouw_neergeschoten__.html - Woman shot in street.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171436/__Geldloopster_overvallen__.html - Money courier victim of armed robbery (guns not mentioned in the article).

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171915/__10_Jaar_cel_voor_aanslag_granaat__.html - MAn jailed for ten years for trying to kill a rival with a hand grenade (which, technically speaking is not a gun, but hand grenades aren't legal in Holland either).


Could someone please send out a memo that gun crime cannot happen in countries where you cannot get guns? Apparently not everybody in Holland got them the first time they were mailed out.

 

[Reeve of Shinra]

I wonder how many hundreds/thousands of people a single squad of trained service personel would be able to take out before civilians could subdue them. I wonder how handguns and rifles would stop an apache helicopter. Or how close people could get to a hummer with a M2 BMG sat on top of it.

1 - Iraq
2 - Afghanistan

 

[Slavik]

Sorry I forgot that we can just walk into Tesco's and pick one up

No. You cant get a gun in the UK unless:

1- You belong to an active gun club
2- You pass a set of strict requirements (including a house visit by a firearms officer, and personality references from multiple people)
3- Your local police are nformed, and have ok'd the issuing of a license.
4- Provide a suitable (verified and checked) gun cabinet with a lock, which must be secured to a solid brick wall
5- You must show good reason for possession of each and every firearm you own, and if it's believed that you no longer have good reason for owning a firearm, it will be taken off of you.

Even then, it's only allowed to be a shotgun or a .22 caliber rifle. You're not allowed to own a handgun, semi-automatic, etc and you are NEVER allowed to take it out in public.

Your license also expires every 5 years, and is £50 to apply for.

So no. No you cant get a gun. At least not one for self defence or any real use.

You forget also:

The ammunition must be kept seperate from the weapon and securely stored also (even in your home).
When traveling to your firing range, the ammunition must be in a secure container not with the weapon (eg gun in the boot/trunk and ammunition in the glovebox.
Ammunition can never be loaded into the weapon until you are on the range in designated areas.

 

[Reeve of Shinra]

This time, it is not a political agenda issue, it is a national crisis issue.

That is quite sensationalist... a crisis is the crime rate in Detroit or Newark, NJ. A national crisis is the stagnant economy. As sad as this event is, it is not a national crisis.

 

[Slavik]

1 - Iraq
2 - Afghanistan

Are you trying to make a point?

 

[Reeve of Shinra]

I heard sweden and a few other Norwegian countries allow guns and they have a low gun violence rate ... anyone care to speak to that?

 

[John]

Does the gov't in the UK tell you all when and how to wipe your own arses, too? Sheesh...people that willingly turn over the personal freedom to live their lives how they see fit to the gov't. are the problem in this world...and always have been since the beginning of human history.

 

[RickM]

You are not reading what I said.

You were the one who made the statement that the NRA and gun lovers instantly abused the massacre to start a political discussion about gun control. Your own link showed that it was actually the opposite. It was not the gun lovers or the NRA. In fact, the NRA made a brief statement the 18th that they would hold a news conference.

Regardless of when they released their statement, the fact that the earliest date you could find was the 18th directly contradicts your earlier statement that the NRA is trying to politically abuse the dead kids. Or, reworded, you are offended at the NRA for something they did not do.




Here's some gun related news articles from today's news in Holland, where you also cannot get guns.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21172577/__Politie_zoekt_getuigen_Osdorp__.html - The police is looking for witnesses to a shooting yesterday in Amsterdam.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21172573/__Vonnis_liquidatieproces_op_29_januari__.html - The court will reach a verdict regarding a big liquidation case related to organized crime.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171584/__Gezochte_auto_blijkt_van_politie__.html - The police is looking for a suspect in a liquidation. (Turns out that the car they are looking for is a police car. Really make you feel safe knowing these guys are protecting you from criminals, eh?)

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171803/__Juwelier_gewond__.html - Jeweler got hurt in a robbery. Not sure guns were involved. People nearby reported hearing gunshots, the police denies shots were fired.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21172664/__Politie_vindt_wapens_in_huis__.html - The police found two guns searching a house.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171671/__Betrapte_dief_trekt_pistool__.html - Thief confronted by store staff pulls a gun and threatens to shoot staff.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171009/__Vrouw_neergeschoten__.html - Woman shot in street.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171436/__Geldloopster_overvallen__.html - Money courier victim of armed robbery (guns not mentioned in the article).

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/21171915/__10_Jaar_cel_voor_aanslag_granaat__.html - MAn jailed for ten years for trying to kill a rival with a hand grenade (which, technically speaking is not a gun, but hand grenades aren't legal in Holland either).


Could someone please send out a memo that gun crime cannot happen in countries where you cannot get guns? Apparently not everybody in Holland got them the first time they were mailed out.

I liked how I asked for the UK, and you gave me the Netherlands, which is considered to be the easiest country to get a firearm in within Europe.

Could you do the same for the UK...like I originally asked?

Also, nobody's saying gun crime CANT HAPPEN they are saying it is SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER.

It's pure logic: Less people own guns, thus less people can commit gun crimes. This is pure statistical fact not some made up crap.

The same as you could argue "Less cars on the road = less people dying from drink driving". That's pure statistical fact too.

 

[RickM]

I heard sweden and a few other Norwegian countries allow guns and they have a low gun violence rate ... anyone care to speak to that?

Where did you 'hear' that? I hear a lot of things...it doesn't make them true

Last I checked Sweden did have a license. However it was almost like a hybrid license. It's not as strict as say, the UK one, but it was more of a restriction on quantity of firearms, and the amount of ammo you may have. For 2007, Sweden had a rate of 0.41 homicides by firearm rate per 100,000 pop. In comparison, the US had a 2.97 rate. Massive, massive difference.

In comparison, England & Wales combined had a 0.07 rate.

and yes. I actually have a source.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

 

[Slavik]

Does the gov't in the UK tell you all when and how to wipe your own arses, too? Sheesh...people that willingly turn over the personal freedom to live their lives how they see fit to the gov't. are the problem in this world...and always have been since the beginning of human history.

Because owning a gun gives you so much more personal freedom to do what you want right?

 

[Vicki]

You are not reading what I said.

You were the one who made the statement that the NRA and gun lovers instantly abused the massacre to start a political discussion about gun control. Your own link showed that it was actually the opposite. It was not the gun lovers or the NRA. In fact, the NRA made a brief statement the 18th that they would hold a news conference.

Regardless of when they released their statement, the fact that the earliest date you could find was the 18th directly contradicts your earlier statement that the NRA is trying to politically abuse the dead kids. Or, reworded, you are offended at the NRA for something they did not do.

FYI, my earlier statement about you gun enthusiasts and NRA was posted yesterday, which was 19th, which was after I've read news from multiple news sources regarding NRA broke silent about Sundy Hook shooting and so forth. Maybe you could use a little more research before posting.

 

[RickM]

Does the gov't in the UK tell you all when and how to wipe your own arses, too? Sheesh...people that willingly turn over the personal freedom to live their lives how they see fit to the gov't. are the problem in this world...and always have been since the beginning of human history.

Yeah damn our government.

How are those phonecalls going by the way? http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_me/

Or your airports - it's all in the effort to "protect you" of course.

It's shocking that you can think for one second that you are free. Nobody is free by your definition.

Neither your government nor ours are any better than each other. Take all the crap we had to put up with SOPA - you cant honestly think you're more free than anyone else with a government that tries to do that.

 

[Bain]

Because owning a gun gives you so much more personal freedom to do what you want right?

Owning guns are what helped us kick the king's ass and gain our freedom.
We will keep our guns in case we need to do the same to the ever corrupt government and replace them with a system that works.
That is the real reason the government wants gun control.