Does anyone feel like this is the next-gen of forums?

[Chris D]

That's not really new information or unexpected. A massive change to the core code base for any major version software upgrade is likely going to leave fairly large compatibility issues, at best, or practically require rewrites as is the case here.

Seeing it as a disservice to the normal consumer is rather short-sighted. The changes have only ever been made with the normal consumer at the heart of the matter. The new framework allows for quicker and more powerful development which will allow add-on developers, style designers and ourselves to add more features more quickly over time.

As for the specifics of payment, you would need to take that up with the add-on developers individually. It's not fair to assume that every single add-on would need to be re-purchased. I know a number of add-on developers are going to be looking at discounted licenses for existing customers, adding extra value to the products through new features or improvements which would make the additional purchase worth it or even giving the updates away for free or for a pre-agreed license renewal fee to existing customers.

 

[Steve F]

The on thing i read that is kind of disturbing is the fact all of the add-ons we paid for will not work with X2. So i now have to spend more money to these developers for add-ons i already paid to use with X1 for X2. To me this is doing a disservice to the normal consumer and only benefiting the people who make add-ons. Where do people like me gain from having to spend more money for add-ons i already paid in full to use. To me this is not right and If you are going to build a new xenforo to make things easier for add-on developers, people like me should not have to get the short- end of the stick with having to dish out more money to make add-ons work with xenforo 2. If that is the case i rather stay with X1 and just receive security updates for that, and not move to X2.

When you go out get a new phone is it free do you have to pay to upgrade?

Aside from that I think I’ve seen most mention if you have a active license with them the upgrade is included. Can’t speak for exactly who that all is just seen a few times it was mentioned.

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

That's not really new information or unexpected. A massive change to the core code base for any major version software upgrade is likely going to leave fairly large compatibility issues, at best, or practically require rewrites as is the case here.

Seeing it as a disservice to the normal consumer is rather short-sighted. The changes have only ever been made with the normal consumer at the heart of the matter. The new framework allows for quicker and more powerful development which will allow add-on developers, style designers and ourselves to add more features more quickly over time.

As for the specifics of payment, you would need to take that up with the add-on developers individually. It's not fair to assume that every single add-on would need to be re-purchased. I know a number of add-on developers are going to be looking at discounted licenses for existing customers, adding extra value to the products through new features or improvements which would make the additional purchase worth it or even giving the updates away for free or for a pre-agreed license renewal fee to existing customers.

Hum.... I will just touch on one thing. I did not assume anything, and it is unfair for you to assume that I was assuming things. I myself spoke to developers and received information about the payment for already fully paid for add-on and moving forward with X2

 

[Chris D]

I wasn't trying to be unfair. I was speaking generally. Others reading your post may assume that all developers are going to charge full price for all of their 2.0 versions again. That's a generalisation (probably a better word than assumption) that doesn't appear to be accurate in all cases. If it does apply in your case specifically, that is indeed frustrating but I hope that not everyone will have the same experience.

 

[Dakota Storm]

When you go out get a new phone is it free do you have to pay to upgrade?

Aside from that I think I’ve seen most mention if you have a active license with them the upgrade is included. Can’t speak for exactly who that all is just seen a few times it was mentioned.

How are you guys doing it?

 

[Steve F]

How are you guys doing it?

We’ll be posting some news on our site soon.

 

[Mike Edge]

When you go out get a new phone is it free do you have to pay to upgrade?

Depends on your phone provider and how long you owned it.. Sprint gives a new iPhone upgrade yearly

 

[jauburn]

Forums and communities like ours are a respite from all that.

They can be, in certain cases. Too often, the trouble with forums "like ours" is actually us--the administrators and/or moderators. Heavy-handed, poor people management skills, too restrictive, etc.--all site killers. Eventually users get sick of this stuff. From that respect, a place like Facebook can actually feel less restrictive and refreshing.

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

I wasn't trying to be unfair. I was speaking generally. Others reading your post may assume that all developers are going to charge full price for all of their 2.0 versions again. That's a generalisation (probably a better word than assumption) that doesn't appear to be accurate in all cases. If it does apply in your case specifically, that is indeed frustrating but I hope that not everyone will have the same experience.

I should of been more clear in my first post about my concern. When I say pay for add-on we paid for already I was not trying to imply that we would have to purchase the add-on all over again. What I am saying is now i would be forced to spend more money to get these same add-ons to work in xen2, even if it is at a discount price, or renewal price after these developers rewrite the add-on's to function properly with Xen2. All of the add-on's I currently have installed are working 100% fine. So even if my yearly subscription had passed for the year, I do not need to nor do I worry about paying to renew the add-one for another year etc. Now I will have to worry about this issue. Because all add-on's will be turning Legacy and will not function with Xen2 This is what I meant about doing the consumer a disservice because now their will be money that have to be spent to get add-on's that are working totally fine right now on xen1 to work in Xen2. That to me is not right, but was it hard to make the add-on backwards compatible? Also I have a lot of add-on's I purchased and some custom add-on I had developed also I need to now worry about.

 

[Martok]

I should of been more clear in my first post about my concern. When I say pay for add-on we paid for already I was not trying to imply that we would have to purchase the add-on all over again. What I am saying is now i would be forced to spend more money to get these same add-ones to work in xen2, even if it is at a discount price, or renewal price after these developers rewrite the add-on's to function properly with Xen2. All of the add-on's I currently have installed are working 100% fine. So even if my yearly subscription had passed for the year, I do not need to nor do I worry about paying to renew the add-one for another year etc. Now I will have to worry about this issue. Because all add-on's will be turning Legacy and will not function with Xen2 This is what I meant about doing the consumer a disservice because now their will be money that have to be spent to get add-on's that are working totally fine right now on xen1 to work in Xen2. That to me is not right, but was it hard to make the add-one backwards compatible? Also I have a lot of add-on's I purchased and some custom add-one I had developed also I need to now worry about.

Why should a developer be expected to completely re-write an add-on to work for XenForo 2.0 for free? Some add-ons are quite complex and require many hours of work to code (you simply can't copy and paste code that works in XF1 into XF2). IMO it's quite unreasonable to expect a developer to put in hours of work for absolutely nothing (and you don't see this in other software either, for example Microsoft Office you needed to purchase new versions or you pay an annual subscription for Office 365 if you want to keep using it and get all of the updates).

If we already have purchased add-ons from developers that work with XenForo 1.5, then they have delivered what we purchased. It's our choice if we decide to upgrade to XenForo 2.0 (we don't have to if everything is working as it should) and it's not their fault that their add-ons don't work with a completely new version of the core software. Yes, we do expect them to fix changes between 1.x versions as these are essentially just fixes. Changing to XF 2 isn't a fix, it's a complete rewrite and IMO developers are fully justified in charging something for this. I'm sure that, as has already been said, many will offer discounted upgrade prices to existing customers and others that already charge a yearly subscription will likely provide the XF2 version 'for free' for active licenses.

 

[W.D]

Why should a developer be expected to completely re-write an add-on to work for XenForo 2.0 for free? Some add-ons are quite complex and require many hours of work to code (you simply can't copy and paste code that works in XF1 into XF2). IMO it's quite unreasonable to expect a developer to put in hours of work for absolutely nothing (and you don't see this in other software either, for example Microsoft Office you needed to purchase new versions or you pay an annual subscription for Office 365 if you want to keep using it and get all of the updates).

If we already have purchased add-ons from developers that work with XenForo 1.5, then they have delivered what we purchased. It's our choice if we decide to upgrade to XenForo 2.0 (we don't have to if everything is working as it should) and it's not their fault that their add-ons don't work with a completely new version of the core software. Yes, we do expect them to fix changes between 1.x versions as these are essentially just fixes. Changing to XF 2 isn't a fix, it's a complete rewrite and IMO developers are fully justified in charging something for this. I'm sure that, as has already been said, many will offer discounted upgrade prices to existing customers and others that already charge a yearly subscription will likely provide the XF2 version 'for free' for active licenses.

I feel the need to charge a fee for a total rewrite is justified. using your example, another way to look at it would be say you used Windows XP but you bought AVG 2011. While Windows XP would be updated to 2014 AVG wouldn't. You would need to purchase another license for it however much it costs. Most developers used to charge lifetime licenses, but these days so many people bought them they made no income once their new versions came out. many were forced to stop selling lifetime licenses such as many XenForo developers have. A yearly fee plus a little extra for a XenForo 2 update would be perfectly fine in my eyes, I'm sure others won't agree but how are these developers meant to make a living?

Most addons I believe also state updates are only for the current branch of XenForo i.e 1.5 not 2.0.

As someone on low income I can see peoples concerns but don't forget 1.5 will be updated security wise for at least 6 months if not more. Just look at the IPS/vB sites many still use 3.4.x or 3.8.x or 4.0/4.1/4.2 all of which are end of life on support many for 5+ years. End of the day it's your choice if you wish to jump straight into upgrading XenForo 2, Myself I'll do some test boards first see how things act/what breaks/what needs updating and wait till 2.1 depending if my addons in use get updated in a timely manner.

Nothing is 100% free, even Windows 10 costs in a way, in terms of your data being used to slap advertising in your face and lack of privacy. Even then the software still needs paying for. AntiVirus costs for a decent one, so does Office, games etc. You don't buy Call of Duty x.x and expect to get the next game for free it costs just like these addons. Sucky? Very, but it's life. If you wish to support the developers you'll pay for it.

In other words save up, it's worth it if you care about your communitys.

 

[RobinHood]

Now I will have to worry about this issue. Because all add-on's will be turning Legacy and will not function with Xen2 This is what I meant about doing the consumer a disservice because now their will be money that have to be spent to get add-on's that are working totally fine right now on xen1 to work in Xen2. That to me is not right

It's the cost of progress mate. If you're happy with the current feature set and installed add ons you don't have to upgrade to XF2 straight away, or at all.

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

It's the cost of progress mate. If you're happy with the current feature set and installed add ons you don't have to upgrade to XF2 straight away, or at all.

That is not the cost of progress, that is a company choosing to start over and forcing their consumer to follow suite. Which in term forces them spend more money on add-on they already paid for to use. I am a consumer who never asked for developers to rewrite code to work with a brand new software. So why should I have to pay when xenforo should make the current add-on backwards compatible. The fact of the matter is, we should not have to pay for any renewal or discount cost to get the same add-on to work in xen2. That is forcing the consumer to do something. I actually dont care about moving to xen2 I will stay with xen1 if the company will still provide security updates etc for it, so my site stays stable. If they can not do that then that will be a disservice and not fair.

 

[RobinHood]

I imagine security updates will be provided, as has been in the the case in the past with the occasional patch when something has been brought to the devs attention.

You paid for a software licence with a certain feature set at the point of purchase and got a years worth of updates from that. Seeing as you registered in 2013 I'm guessing you've had your licence for at least 1 year and got your money's worth from that, maybe much longer. You're not forced to do anything if you're happy with your existing software and add ons. You're all set.

The fact of the matter is, we should not have to pay for any renewal or discount cost to get the same add-on to work in xen2

Actually, yes, you should. If you want to upgrade to the latest version, you should have to pay for it, that is if you value the hard work that goes into rewriting it, maintaining it and providing support to those who purchase the core software and various add ons.

I get the frustration from many people who resent having to pay for a fair few add ons they feel should be in the core, but the fact remains if a 3rd party dev puts time in to creating it then they deserve compensation. I recognise that many seemingly minor add ons are very expensive compared to the core licence price, and it frustrates me that many sites will have to invest double, triple or more than the core licence cost in add ons to get it to a state they deem acceptable and functional with adequate features for their users, but it's the way it is. If these devs don't get paid and it's not worth their while, then they leave and we get no new features.

There isn't a team of 1,000 engineers behind XF and all it's mods that can make buckets of cash from letting you use their code for free and making money from plastering your site in ads. XF is only 3 guys who created a piece of software that now powers roughly 1/3 of all commercial online forums and you can get an upgrade to the latest version for the cost of less than a night out with your mates at the pub (if you want it). It's quite a remarkable achievement. If you're on a super tight budget there's lots of (arguably) less capable free solutions out there. Or you can migrate to Facebook groups and let Facebook soak up all of your data and track your users in exchange for getting their huge infrastructure and backing.

There's lots of people complaining about how forum software isn't progressing fast enough and keeping up with the times (quite vocally myself included), but the only way we're going to get there is if the devs pushing the boundaries of what it can do get paid. I'm sure the majority of any add-ons that are rewritten will also include new features and be refactored to modern code practices resulting in an improved experience for your users, they won't necessarily be exactly the same.

Regardless, an upgrade of the core plus new versions of any add ons you currently have are unlikely to result in the exact same experience you're running now, but a vastly improved one. If the changes aren't significant enough to justify the cost, and you and your users are happy with your existing setup, then hang tight with what you have. It's a solid, stable solution and support isn't going anywhere for long while yet

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

I imagine security updates will be provided, as has been in the the case in the past with the occasional patch when something has been brought to the devs attention.

You paid for a software licence with a certain feature set at the point of purchase and got a years worth of updates from that. Seeing as you registered in 2013 I'm guessing you've had your licence for at least 1 year and got your money's worth from that, maybe much longer. You're not forced to do anything if you're happy with your existing software and add ons. You're all set.



Actually, yes, you should. If you want to upgrade to the latest version, you should have to pay for it, that is if you value the hard work that goes into rewriting it, maintaining it and providing support to those who purchase the core software and various add ons.

I get the frustration from many people who resent having to pay for a fair few add ons they feel should be in the core, but the fact remains if a 3rd party dev puts time in to creating it then they deserve compensation. I recognise that many seemingly minor add ons are very expensive compared to the core licence price, and it frustrates me that many sites will have to invest double, triple or more than the core licence cost in add ons to get it to a state they deem acceptable and functional with adequate features for their users, but it's the way it is. If these devs don't get paid and it's not worth their while, then they leave and we get no new features.

There isn't a team of 1,000 engineers behind XF and all it's mods that can make buckets of cash from letting you use their code for free and making money from plastering your site in ads. XF is only 3 guys who created a piece of software that now powers roughly 1/3 of all commercial online forums and you can get an upgrade to the latest version for the cost of less than a night out with your mates at the pub (if you want it). It's quite a remarkable achievement. If you're on a super tight budget there's lots of (arguably) less capable free solutions out there. Or you can migrate to Facebook groups and let Facebook soak up all of your data and track your users in exchange for getting their huge infrastructure and backing.

There's lots of people complaining about how forum software isn't progressing fast enough and keeping up with the times (quite vocally myself included), but the only way we're going to get there is if the devs pushing the boundaries of what it can do get paid. I'm sure the majority of any add-ons that are rewritten will also include new features and be refactored to modern code practices resulting in an improved experience for your users, they won't necessarily be exactly the same.

Regardless, an upgrade of the core plus new versions of any add ons you currently have are unlikely to result in the exact same experience you're running now, but a vastly improved one. If the changes aren't significant enough to justify the cost, and you and your users are happy with your existing setup, then hang tight with what you have. It's a solid, stable solution and support isn't going anywhere for long while yet

You are totally missing my point.
Last thing I will say on this topic!
If I have an add-on that I am 1000000000000% fine with, and is currently working with no issues on X1. I should still be able to use the same add-on in X2 with no problem, and with out having to pay the developer of the add-on money to acquire his new version that will work with X2. What I am saying is the add-on should be able to cross over platforms. (Backwards compatibility) The consumers pocket should not take a hit because Xenforo basically makes all of the X1 add-on Legacy, which will make them not work with their X2 platform. The consumer is not making developers rewrite the add-on's Xenforo is.I am really confused as to how anybody can try to justify that the consumer now has to pay more money for something they already paid for and is working 100 fine.
(I am not forcing the developers to rewrite their add-on's)

Yes Xen 2 is new which means when you purchase the platform you will be receiving a serious upgrading. (I get that Totally get that)
But If you think about how xenforo is basically the core, and relies on the extra add-on's developers create for their software.
The X amount of add-ons that have been made and purchased over the years basically help run the software. So for xenforo to just say all X amount of add-ons will not work in Xen2 is basically stripping the consumer of all they have invested in. How is that even remotely right. So now if I was to buy xen2 I would be starting all over again from scratch. (No add-ons because they are all legacy)Then I have to wait for each of the developers I purchased a add-on from to rewrite the add-on for xen2. Then I have to now spend money on renewing the add-on so it functions with xen2. So on my site I have purchased a ton of add-ons and had some custom add-ons made specifically for my site. It will be a good amount of money I will have to spend to bring back all of the add-on's to get my site functioning the same. (Mind Blowing & Disturbing.)


Side note: It doesn't matter if the developer rewrites the add-on and add a new feature or 2. What matters is the fact I should have the option to renew the add-on to acquire the new features if I choose to. So The add-on should still be able to work with xen2 and if the developer rewrites the add-on for xen2 and adds more features. I should then choose to renew the add-on or not. Not be forced to renew the add-on just to get the add-on to work with xen2.

 

[Dakota Storm]

You are totally missing my point.
Last thing I will say on this topic!
If I have an add-on that I am 1000000000000% fine with, and is currently working with no issues on X1. I should still be able to use the same add-on in X2 with no problem, and with out having to pay the developer of the add-on money to acquire his new version that will work with X2. What I am saying is the add-on should be able to cross over platforms. (Backwards compatibility) The consumers pocket should not take a hit because Xenforo basically makes all of the X1 add-on Legacy, which will make them not work with their X2 platform. The consumer is not making developers rewrite the add-on's Xenforo is.I am really confused as to how anybody can try to justify that the consumer now has to pay more money for something they already paid for and is working 100 fine.
(I am not forcing the developers to rewrite their add-on's)

Yes Xen 2 is new which means when you purchase the platform you will be receiving a serious upgrading. (I get that Totally get that)
But If you think about how xenforo is basically the core, and relies on the extra add-on's developers create for their software.
The X amount of add-ons that have been made and purchased over the years basically help run the software. So for xenforo to just say all X amount of add-ons will not work in Xen2 is basically stripping the consumer of all they have invested in. How is that even remotely right. So now if I was to buy xen2 I would be starting all over again from scratch. (No add-ons because they are all legacy)Then I have to wait for each of the developers I purchased a add-on from to rewrite the add-on for xen2. Then I have to now spend money on renewing the add-on so it functions with xen2. So on my site I have purchased a ton of add-ons and had some custom add-ons made specifically for my site. It will be a good amount of money I will have to spend to bring back all of the add-on's to get my site functioning the same. (Mind Blowing & Disturbing.)


Side note: It doesn't matter if the developer rewrites the add-on and add a new feature or 2. What matters is the fact I should have the option to renew the add-on to acquire the new features if I choose to. So The add-on should still be able to work with xen2 and if the developer rewrites the add-on for xen2 and adds more features. I should then choose to renew the add-on or not. Not be forced to renew the add-on just to get the add-on to work with xen2.

So you'd rather, XF hack old code in to new code, just to make old code based addons work with the new code?

 

[W.D]

If you bought the addon then you agreed to the terms, Code changes it happens on every script in the end. Stuff breaks meaning new versions are made. That's why most devs charge a yearly fee.

Those "Life time" addons you bought are not life time i.e for XenForo 2. Just looking at the resources you can see that. Example Taigachat has "
This addon along with lifetime*" notice the *? scroll down you'll see,

*Lifetime updates refers to a single XF major version (e.g. 1.x.x) - a small fee may be payable to continue receiving updates if a new XF major version is released more than 6 months after your purchase. This is due to the fact that major XF version releases may require a complete addon rewrite. If this is not the case, the fee may be waived at my discretion. Please consider that this is still a generous policy compared to other addons (which typically offer a 1 year renewal cycle), given that XF 1.x has been going for nearly 5 years now.

Ha @Dakota Storm that's a good one, let's see how mashing up old code will go *Cough vBulletin 4* I'm sure it'll go well and become the top* script.

*top means most hacked and insecure forum script around.

 

[Martok]

You are totally missing my point.
Last thing I will say on this topic!
If I have an add-on that I am 1000000000000% fine with, and is currently working with no issues on X1. I should still be able to use the same add-on in X2 with no problem, and with out having to pay the developer of the add-on money to acquire his new version that will work with X2. What I am saying is the add-on should be able to cross over platforms. (Backwards compatibility) The consumers pocket should not take a hit because Xenforo basically makes all of the X1 add-on Legacy, which will make them not work with their X2 platform. The consumer is not making developers rewrite the add-on's Xenforo is.I am really confused as to how anybody can try to justify that the consumer now has to pay more money for something they already paid for and is working 100 fine.
(I am not forcing the developers to rewrite their add-on's)

Yes Xen 2 is new which means when you purchase the platform you will be receiving a serious upgrading. (I get that Totally get that)
But If you think about how xenforo is basically the core, and relies on the extra add-on's developers create for their software.
The X amount of add-ons that have been made and purchased over the years basically help run the software. So for xenforo to just say all X amount of add-ons will not work in Xen2 is basically stripping the consumer of all they have invested in. How is that even remotely right. So now if I was to buy xen2 I would be starting all over again from scratch. (No add-ons because they are all legacy)Then I have to wait for each of the developers I purchased a add-on from to rewrite the add-on for xen2. Then I have to now spend money on renewing the add-on so it functions with xen2. So on my site I have purchased a ton of add-ons and had some custom add-ons made specifically for my site. It will be a good amount of money I will have to spend to bring back all of the add-on's to get my site functioning the same. (Mind Blowing & Disturbing.)


Side note: It doesn't matter if the developer rewrites the add-on and add a new feature or 2. What matters is the fact I should have the option to renew the add-on to acquire the new features if I choose to. So The add-on should still be able to work with xen2 and if the developer rewrites the add-on for xen2 and adds more features. I should then choose to renew the add-on or not. Not be forced to renew the add-on just to get the add-on to work with xen2.

I'm sorry but you're being completely unrealistic expecting software to always be backwards compatible. It just can't happen ad infinitum.

XenForo 1.0 was first released in 2011. For the last 6 years the developers have effectively kept things such that add-ons are backwards compatible with a few or no changes between releases. Technology has moved on a lot in those years and we're now at a point that, for future development of both the core software and add-ons, there needed to be major changes, hence XenForo 2.0. The devs have previously said that things like an advanced navigation manager (the most likes of the XenForo suggestions) wasn't possible in XenForo 1.x as it would break backward compatibility. It's likely the same for other suggestions. Now with XenForo 2.0 this has been coded to modern standards and will allow for this and other popular suggestions to be incorporated into the core software from 2.1 onwards. New web technologies that didn't exist back in 2011 can now be utilised in the new software. Trying to keep backwards compatibility just wouldn't allow for this and we'd end up with an ageing platform that people would move away from as they sought newer, more modern forum software.

XenForo isn't unique in what they have done. This has happened many times with other software such as Windows (let's call this 'core software') - this has had many major versions over the years and for each one, software such as Microsoft Office, Adobe Acrobat and many more (let's call these 'add-ons' have had to be rewritten for each one. None of these rewritten paid add-ons have been free for the upgraded versions. It's the same thing for games consoles, there is limited or no backwards compatibility for these (e.g. PS4 won't play PS3 discs, the only way to play those games again on the new console is to buy the rewritten version again).

XenForo 1.5 will be around and supported for some time to come. If you are happy with this and the add-ons that you already have, then you're all set and you can continue as you are. If in the future you want XenForo 2.x with whatever shiny new features that have been added then you'll simply have to bite the bullet and purchase any additional add-ons you require for that version, just as you would for a PC/Mac with an upgraded OS.

 

[HotRodCarts]

XenForo isn't unique in what they have done. This has happened many times with other software such as Windows (let's call this 'core software') - this has had many major versions over the years and for each one, software such as Microsoft Office, Adobe Acrobat and many more (let's call these 'add-ons' have had to be rewritten for each one.

Actually this isn't correct. Office 2007 runs just fine on Windows 10 as does a lot of other 10+ year old software.

 

[ENF]

Actually this isn't correct. Office 2007 runs just fine on Windows 10 as does a lot of other 10+ year old software.

Not a fair comparison - You're talking about installing an application on top of an OS platform that millions of installations. Moreover, the whole Windows platform is a extremely large dev platform with a ton more resources. Xenforo is a PHP script that executed on top of a web server and underlying OS. It's a different ball game.

I hate it when people compare things like this...

As to the backwards compatibility - I'd never expect a v1.x addon to work with v2.x -- I don't want that bloat hanging around. If you're serious about your business, you set aside capital (cash) to prepare for something you know is coming down the pike. We know it [will] cost us nearly $15,000 USD in resources to bring our main site up to XF2. (Mainly replacing/upgrading Addons and the personnel time for all the steps involved from testing, staging and actual site conversion completion. The personnel time *IS* the majority of the cost obviously.)

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to go to v2 either...