TimeWizardCosmo
Well-known member
Well, that just about explains everything
You don't want news, you want Psuedo-Infotainment.
Do you support the immigration law like Arizona?
- Thread starter pk698
- Start date
You don't want news, you want Psuedo-Infotainment.
Ruven
Well-known member
Tell me where the news is then?Well, that just about explains everything
If i watch CNN i might fall asleep, if i watch MSNBC i get annoyed at their smugness and mugging for the camera, with FoxNews i can at least just not watch Hannity since he's batshit insane.
Billo gets a lot of flack from the left, but for the most part he does a real good job. I dont always agree with him, but i dont watch opinion shows because i want them to reinforce my exact views.
Fox and Friends is also horrible, and Glen Beck is like this girl i used to know... somedays she was awesome, other days batshit insane.
The hard news guys on Fox are pretty good though, and Shep Smith is great, one of my favorite guys doing the news right now in America. Judge Nap brings the hard stuff too.
Ruven
Well-known member
Thin skinned now too?
Funny coming from someone who has been throwing barbs from the get go. I said that you lied when you did. That pales in comparison with all the junk you have been saying.
You have been attacking me for not being a person who respects the law, my "verbosity", (we both know what you are implying with that), ridiculing my points with sarcastic praise, belittling what i say at every turn, continually telling me what i believe even though i explicitly tell you that i believe otherwise, accusing me of insulting jews and blacks... and then you made it all worse by calling me a liberal!
Its ok man, you have supposedly left this discussion a few times now, but you continue coming back. Im guessing now you actually mean it?
All ive done is respond to what you have brought up. You keep up bringing other issues into this and i keep responding to them. Hell i tried to get you to turn back into the original point of this thread, yet even know you seem to want to focus on the broader issue instead of the point raised in the title of the thread. I have no problem with that, but you do it seems, even though you keep doing just that.
And you dont seem to respond to anything, you just bring up more stuff that i then respond to.
When you asked me what i would do i gave you a comprehensive and actually logistically possible plan to deal with the narcotics, crime, smuggling, anchor babies, the border, landed immigrants, and illegal drivers.
Your solution?
As always... nothing. Just the same tired impossible non solutions that can never happen.
The 2 highlights being... "why dont they come here legally", and "deport them all", two things that are equally impossible to do.
You can repeat those two things till you are blue in the face, but those things cannot fix the problem because those things cannot be done.
Nobody ever gets around to explaining how exactly those things could even remotely be possible.
twhiting9275
Well-known member
Am I in favor of the necessity of this law? No way. Both sides of the aisle have been promising to deal with this problem for how long now? Eventually, something has to be done to protect the state's interest and rights. If the federal government's not going to get out there and do this, then why SHOULDN'T the state be allowed to protect themselves?
Am I in favor of the law? Absolutely. The only thing I'd change about the entire thing? Forget requiring valid ID from individuals whom you 'suspect' of problems, get out there and require it from everyone in interaction with police. Once that ID's received, they can check it against their databases, and go from there. Pretty much problem solved, right? Sadly, most people treat law enforcement officers as someone who is there to simply be given a hard time to. If you've got nothing to hide, why not co-operate instead of making individual's lives harder?
I haven't been to too many other countries myself, but I would imagine that if people gave the police in those countries half as much problem as theyy give the police in this country, you'd get ripped a new one. Try walking around without a valid id/passport/drivers license/etc in a foreign country, see how well that gets ya!
Am I in favor of the law? Absolutely. The only thing I'd change about the entire thing? Forget requiring valid ID from individuals whom you 'suspect' of problems, get out there and require it from everyone in interaction with police. Once that ID's received, they can check it against their databases, and go from there. Pretty much problem solved, right? Sadly, most people treat law enforcement officers as someone who is there to simply be given a hard time to. If you've got nothing to hide, why not co-operate instead of making individual's lives harder?
I haven't been to too many other countries myself, but I would imagine that if people gave the police in those countries half as much problem as theyy give the police in this country, you'd get ripped a new one. Try walking around without a valid id/passport/drivers license/etc in a foreign country, see how well that gets ya!
TheLaw
Well-known member
I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you think I'm implying other than what I'm saying. I'm not the first person to allude to this nor that you believe that breaking the law is acceptable. I'm writing back because your words make me concerned you appear personally hurt and on the edge. Nobody lied. You should reread people's responses to you and take a moment to think about them. This is a friendly place and it should stay that way. You're entitled to your opinion many of us are wrong but others have echoed similar sentiments. Perhaps reflection is in order in a friendly, productive way.
The subject is "do you support the immigration law like Arizona?" If the answer is "yes" then there is no problem to be solved. That's the solution. Since you're saying it isn't, it's up to you to provide a better alternative and I and others don't believe you have. It seems you believe that immigration law unfairly restricts numerous Mexicans who want to walk into the US and get a job and welfare to get started because everyone else does so jumping is acceptable. OK, you're entitled to your opinion, we are at an impasse, let's call an end to this in an amicable fashion. I have and am walking away from discussion with you and probably on this issue.
It's a difficult issue I won't expound upon too far. Suffice it to say this - if the law requires 100% of the population to carry IDs but the police then check 95% of people who appear to be of Mexican heritage, there will be a cry of "racial profiling" and million dollar lawsuits against the state. Why are only people who appear to be of Hispanic/Mexican heritage being checked and not a full sampling of the population as is the law? You know why but that isn't good enough to say that, technically, the law is being applied equally against all but only against a selection of the population that happens to appear Mexicans through observation (which is used due to the typical time/cost restraints.) Hence, this law attempts to address the problem specifically. You can discuss it amongst yourselves. Good luck guys, it has been interesting.
Mattie Num Nums
Active member
This still doesn't account for your canned "Racism, we were here first" responses.
Mattie Num Nums
Active member
It makes sense to me. The law effects "Hispanics" because thats the border we share and are having issues with. Its not racisms its Common freakin sense.
twhiting9275
Well-known member
Absolutely agreed! Sadly, individuals will pull the racism card any time they get the opportunity though, unfortunately.
Ruven
Well-known member
But this is not another country. This is America, and the point of America is that we are different.
Comparing us to others is a disservice to ourselves.
When a cop can pull you over without a legit reason... we have a problem.
You are not even required to fully open your window to a police officer when he pulls you over, and you are allowed to question why you are being pulled over. Cops often use any random excuse to pull you over, and once they have made contact they ask for your license, registration and insurance in order to fish for a violation.
I used to drive a beat up old pickup as my daily driver because i had to drive far and it saved me on gas, i was repeatedly pulled over by "friendly" officers who stopped me to alert me that my back taillight was busted. But in the process he also asks for my information.
I refused, telling him i had done nothing wrong, and that i would fix my tail light, but since it was daylight it was ok. He continued to ask for my information and i declined.
I asked him if i was getting a ticket, and he said no. So i asked if i could leave.
He let me go, but i knew that i was running the chance of being taken in just because i stood up for my rights.
People are not supposed to be harassed for their "papers" in this country. Unless you are breaking the law or suspected of breaking the law, your privacy and anonymity should be respected.
The "if you are innocent then you shouldnt care if they ask for your papers" retort is very illogical.
Would you be ok if cops came to search your house... i mean you have nothing to hide, right?
A cop cant even go into your car unless you give him permission to do so, or unless there is clear and present visible evidence that there is a crime being committed in your car.
If he thinks you are high he cannot look in your car for pot, but if he smells pot or sees a roach clip then he can.
Being brown, poor, or playing a certain kind of music cannot be grounds for being stopped and asked to produce papers.
People need to remember that erosion of these liberties always starts with those at the outskirts of society, but slowly creeps into the mainstream. Eventually cops will be able to pull anyone over without a valid reason. Whats to stop him from saying "i thought that white guy in the Camry was an illegal immigrant from Canada because he had the Canucks/Maple Leafs game blaring from his radio"?
twhiting9275
Well-known member
No, you ran the risk of being taken in because you acted like a complete and total tool. Like I said, just try talking to any officer in any other country that way. You wouldn't be allowed, but it's ok, because you're American, you have the right to be rude and uncooperative. Apparently it's written in the Constitution somewhere.
kickflip
Member
Hey now, once we started killing them they pretty much gave it to us.
Anyways, about the law, something has to be done. Where I live there are a lot of 'illegals' and it has a direct effect on the unemployment rate here. Yet they still get state benefits etc...
My solutions:
Harsher penalties on employers that use 'illegals' which would help to keep them from hiring them.
No more 'anchor babies'. If the parents are citizens from another country besides the U.S., their child should also be considered a citizen of that country, not the U.S..
Speed up the process for people to gain U.S. citizenship.
Ruven
Well-known member
I was a tool, how so?
Im always respectful with the police, ive given money to police for many years, im on theirs and the firemens call list for donations. I give them money and they send me stickers with my name and address for use in my mail. I send money to the blind people too, they send me trash bags, although im not sure how the blind people are able to make the black plastic trashbags being blind and all... but apparently they make them themselves. I use the bags much more than the stamps i get from the cops and firemen these days.
Anyhow, yeah... i dont disrespect cops. And its not just because im a bootlicker, errrr..... i mean respectful of their authority, but because there is no point in being a jerk. At worst its going to piss them off and get you a ticket, and there is nothing positive that can come out of it. Its not like you are going to intimidate the cop, so its just stupid to try and show him up.
BUT... you should not allow your rights to be violated either.
Standing up for your rights without being a jerk about it is not being a complete tool.
Well unless this was a police state.
Ruven
Well-known member
Well once you start killing people i would hope they have the will to fight back, right?
Is the logic "hey they fought back so its ok that we attacked them" ?
About the law... you are right. We are suffering and something does need to be done. I agree with everyone who says that. And while i dont agree with how Arizona has gone about doing something, i do understand why they want to do something.
And i agree with everything you said 99%
I wont go 100% because there is a constitutional issue with your solution to the anchor baby problem, but you can work around that. There are ways to intelligently deal with the anchor baby problem without violating our own constitution.
I applaud you actually posting real solutions. Putting the onus on the business that get rich off of using illegal labor is a huge thing that sadly people dont like to talk about.
Its hard to be for big business and be against illegal immigration at the same time, yet most people who are in one of those camps are also in the other... which is kinda mindboggling and hypocritical.
Ruven
Well-known member
I would never tell someone what to do, but i would suggest you stop retiring from this thread, you are starting to sound like Brett Favre.
"Personally hurt/on the edge", is this how you try to argue in court, by first belittling, then saying you are being insulted, and then painting the other party as emotional and nuts?
This thread was a good 4 or 5 pages long before you stepped into it, and there people disagreed and agreed with each other and nobody (as far as i can recall) took umbrage at anything personally.
If anyone started with the snide comments it was you, just reread our posts, they are dripping with snark and sarcasm. Which is fine, i enjoy that myself quite a bit sometimes.
But nobody said anything about it, that seemed to be your style, so fine.
What was funny was you then getting all butthurt when i started with some sarcastic comments.
Its all good fun man.
This is a serious subject sure, but you shouldnt take an argument on the internet personally.
We all have our own reasons as to why we indulge in this kind of thread. I learn a lot from reading the replies to my posts, and i also learn a lot from my own posts... long winded as they may be.
And we are not at an impasse, we are at a failure to communicate properly.
You continue to take my posts and extract incorrect and misleading meanings to what i say.
Like i said before, either you arent understanding me or you dont want to understand me.
Im trying to understand your and everyone elses points, it helps my process and ultimately teaches me more about my own points.
kickflip
Member
sorry for off topic, but...
lolololol @ Brett Favre - I was glad the day he left Green Bay! Minnesota can have him. Like they say, 'one team's trash, is another team's treasure' or something like that.
whitetigergrowl
Well-known member
Fact: Even the simplest laws open the door for discrimination. How many that complained about Arizonas law, are complaining about the Federal one for the same reasons? Maybe if the Federal govt. actually followed it's own laws they would be up in arms about that too. But since they aren't, they stay quiet.
If a cop pulls you over for a tail light thats out, even if you're white and he's Mexican-American, he can be racist and try nailing you for other things. It's not usually the matter of the law, but how it's enforced. That cop could just as easily give you a warning.
The fact that Illegal Immigrants think they should be given the same rights as American Citizens is a slap in the face to legal citizens and shows a general disregard to them.They are making it more about themselves.
Illegal Aliens Canvass for Votes in Wash. State
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/22/illegal-aliens-canvass-votes-wash-state/
A few key points from that article:
* When Maria Gianni is knocking on voters' doors, she's not bashful about telling people she is in the country illegally.(1)
* "Immigrants really do matter," Jayapal said. "If we can't vote ourselves, we're gonna knock on doors, or get family members to vote." (2)
* "In order for there to be a change to our broken immigration system," she said, "I believe one has to fight."
* In close elections across the country, the immigrant and minority vote is considered key for candidates, especially Democrats.
--------------------------
Notice the slight of hand between the first 2 copy and pastes. She says she is not bashful about telling people she is in the country illegally. Then in the second copy and paste it goes from 'illegal immigrant' to just 'immigrant'. An immigrant is someone that naturalized legally. An illegal immigrant is someone that hasn't. That slight of hand is what is causing problems. They are trying to downplay and legitimize their illegal actions. Of course immigrants matter. When they are legal citizens and didn't knowingly break laws to get here.
"Our broken immigration system."?. Our? She's not an American citizen. She is not here legally. It's not her system to worry about. Maybe she should go back where she came from and fix the problems there first before trying to criticize the system here. She is trying to just sway it more in her and other illegals favor than the American Citizens favor.
That last part is the part that tells me to vote anything but Democrat. While other groups may not always be much better, I'll go for the lesser of 2 evils. As they are promoting more illegal activity and racism by pandering more to specific groups of people rather than Americans as a whole regardless of ethnic origin. It shows a level of racism that is worrisome. When it becomes about the 'Hispanic, Asian, Black, etc.' vote, then racism is being done and is helping create more racism. It should be about Americans in general. Not specific groups of people based on ethnic origin. You can't say that you are against racism, then turn around and pander to specific ethnic groups. Telling them what they want to hear, rather than how it should be for everyone and not just a specific group of people.
If Bush would have said while in office, "Whites, you need to get out there and vote.....", Dems and other groups would have strung him out to dry and cried racism. But if Obama says, "Blacks, you need to get out there and vote.....", those same people seem to be ok with that. Again, that is worrisome. More worrisome is when those same parties sell out American Citizens as a whole, just to gain a certain ethnic vote. It's become more about the vote and them just staying in power than it has about the actual American Citizens as a whole. Pandering to specific ethnic groups is the worst thing the govt. can do. Regardless of which one is the largest one or one the fastest growing ones in the U.S..
The fact they are flaunting the fact they are here illegally and are trying to weaken our laws so more illegals can come here, is disturbing. More disturbing is the fact that they are also now trying to sway elections more in their favor than the American Citizens favor. During the Obama Candidacy it was made known that people from overseas in other countries were using programs such as Skype to call American Citizens to try and sway votes in Obamas favor. This trend is disturbing to say the least. And now illegals are trying to sway the vote? Where will this end?
I guess in America it's not about laws or if you are legal. It's about your ethnic origin and if you need the votes. Gee, no wonder America is a 'gimme' society. Gimme something in return and you'll get my vote. If you don't, you're racist.
If I came into your home illegally and started screaming things like racist and other stuff because you wouldn't let me into your home, even though you had 'No Trespassing' and other warning signs signs at the sidewalk, how would you respond? I just barge in, regardless of the signs, and start taking over the house and making demands, what would you do? Then flaunt the fact I came into your house illegally. How would you respond? It's happening right now.
The fact they are knowingly breaking the law, knowingly flaunting that fact, and knowingly trying to sway lawmakers into their illegal immigrant corner by swaying the votes, makes a mockery out of every legal American Citizen and this govt.. And they know it. They know it's weak. And when lawmakers and govt. try to enforce the law, then it becomes a 'racist' issue.
Sad, pathetic, and a totally mockery of every legal citizen and the govt..
If a cop pulls you over for a tail light thats out, even if you're white and he's Mexican-American, he can be racist and try nailing you for other things. It's not usually the matter of the law, but how it's enforced. That cop could just as easily give you a warning.
The fact that Illegal Immigrants think they should be given the same rights as American Citizens is a slap in the face to legal citizens and shows a general disregard to them.They are making it more about themselves.
Illegal Aliens Canvass for Votes in Wash. State
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/10/22/illegal-aliens-canvass-votes-wash-state/
A few key points from that article:
* When Maria Gianni is knocking on voters' doors, she's not bashful about telling people she is in the country illegally.(1)
* "Immigrants really do matter," Jayapal said. "If we can't vote ourselves, we're gonna knock on doors, or get family members to vote." (2)
* "In order for there to be a change to our broken immigration system," she said, "I believe one has to fight."
* In close elections across the country, the immigrant and minority vote is considered key for candidates, especially Democrats.
--------------------------
Notice the slight of hand between the first 2 copy and pastes. She says she is not bashful about telling people she is in the country illegally. Then in the second copy and paste it goes from 'illegal immigrant' to just 'immigrant'. An immigrant is someone that naturalized legally. An illegal immigrant is someone that hasn't. That slight of hand is what is causing problems. They are trying to downplay and legitimize their illegal actions. Of course immigrants matter. When they are legal citizens and didn't knowingly break laws to get here.
"Our broken immigration system."?. Our? She's not an American citizen. She is not here legally. It's not her system to worry about. Maybe she should go back where she came from and fix the problems there first before trying to criticize the system here. She is trying to just sway it more in her and other illegals favor than the American Citizens favor.
That last part is the part that tells me to vote anything but Democrat. While other groups may not always be much better, I'll go for the lesser of 2 evils. As they are promoting more illegal activity and racism by pandering more to specific groups of people rather than Americans as a whole regardless of ethnic origin. It shows a level of racism that is worrisome. When it becomes about the 'Hispanic, Asian, Black, etc.' vote, then racism is being done and is helping create more racism. It should be about Americans in general. Not specific groups of people based on ethnic origin. You can't say that you are against racism, then turn around and pander to specific ethnic groups. Telling them what they want to hear, rather than how it should be for everyone and not just a specific group of people.
If Bush would have said while in office, "Whites, you need to get out there and vote.....", Dems and other groups would have strung him out to dry and cried racism. But if Obama says, "Blacks, you need to get out there and vote.....", those same people seem to be ok with that. Again, that is worrisome. More worrisome is when those same parties sell out American Citizens as a whole, just to gain a certain ethnic vote. It's become more about the vote and them just staying in power than it has about the actual American Citizens as a whole. Pandering to specific ethnic groups is the worst thing the govt. can do. Regardless of which one is the largest one or one the fastest growing ones in the U.S..
The fact they are flaunting the fact they are here illegally and are trying to weaken our laws so more illegals can come here, is disturbing. More disturbing is the fact that they are also now trying to sway elections more in their favor than the American Citizens favor. During the Obama Candidacy it was made known that people from overseas in other countries were using programs such as Skype to call American Citizens to try and sway votes in Obamas favor. This trend is disturbing to say the least. And now illegals are trying to sway the vote? Where will this end?
I guess in America it's not about laws or if you are legal. It's about your ethnic origin and if you need the votes. Gee, no wonder America is a 'gimme' society. Gimme something in return and you'll get my vote. If you don't, you're racist.
If I came into your home illegally and started screaming things like racist and other stuff because you wouldn't let me into your home, even though you had 'No Trespassing' and other warning signs signs at the sidewalk, how would you respond? I just barge in, regardless of the signs, and start taking over the house and making demands, what would you do? Then flaunt the fact I came into your house illegally. How would you respond? It's happening right now.
The fact they are knowingly breaking the law, knowingly flaunting that fact, and knowingly trying to sway lawmakers into their illegal immigrant corner by swaying the votes, makes a mockery out of every legal American Citizen and this govt.. And they know it. They know it's weak. And when lawmakers and govt. try to enforce the law, then it becomes a 'racist' issue.
Sad, pathetic, and a totally mockery of every legal citizen and the govt..
whitetigergrowl
Well-known member
My responses are in bold.