DRE
Well-known member
Pretty much.
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DRE
Well-known member
First thread about Brogan got deleted, this thread is now moderated. If the negativity continues this thread might get deleted. I'd rather it get locked than deleted.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
Would you guys like me to lock this thread? I don't see anything necessarily wrong here. Except this discussion has gotten a little too meta-level for my taste (discussing the discussion). It has a circular quality to it which can be fun. But if this thread is wearing on people then I can lock it. Let me know.
EQnoble
Well-known member
I have to quote you here...and address something as far as I interpreted it at surface value.
You may remember...that I have a memory problem. This however has given me a uncanny ability to assess situations based on the fact that I can drop thoughts out of existence at will (though sometimes I can't keep it from happening) and only make decisions based on needed data.
If I was completely new here I would read your post as XF should get a pass on the case because of what they have done in the name of good before...which implies that they have done something wrong now which is a hypocrisy...to be truthful the only moral thing that IB can do is to stop harassing innocent humans in the name of corporate gains while perverting a system that I am supposed to believe is capable of maintaining my freedom and securities ...and then offer a VERY public and FORMAL apology
They do not need to be forgiven because they have not been wrongful...they deserve an apology and compensation for the mental stress and damage that IB has caused them out of spite and greed.
DRE
Well-known member
Didn't they roll out another forum product before the 12 month period IB asked them not to after leaving the company?
Morgain
Well-known member
We cannot know exactly what happened but it is clear that Brogan felt that he wasn't getting support or resources he deserved. He said he had been asking for more moderators to share his workload for months but his requests were unsuccessful.
At the same time his workload was enormous, and he was coping with a lot of complicated community interaction here as well as sheer quantity of support work, plus nastiness on other boards.
It's not surprising that it all got too much when he wasn't getting the support he needed.
Perhaps some part of what Brogan wanted was tricky for the team to do for him. That would be a tough call.
In the absence of any further info I'd say that almost anything would be worthwhile to change or put in place to keep someone like Brogan happily working in the service of XF.
He has been quite simply the centre of the XF community almost since it started. As Kier Mike and Ashley have become less and less available for very good reasons (success being one of them!) it has been Brogan who has nurtured the remarkable and distinctive community here over its life to date.
The software is superb. But without a good community for support, and healthy communication around add-ons, the core software just isn't that useful. We need help to understand it, and additions to customise and enrich it. One of the mighty strengths of XF is its capacity for customisation - but we can't do it without help.
WITH a strong community and good add-ons the core software is the crowning glory of it all.
It's been Brogan more than anyone else who has ensured that the core software has its vitally necessary support resources. Which has made XF the unequalled software it is.
I'm not going to ask Brogan to come back. In his place I wouldn't want that pressure. I'd want to feel free and clear and "away." To be myself and feel into what I really want to do.
If in due course XF can go to Brogan and offer him what he needs and IF he accepted, few here would be happier than me. But I suspect there would be a big competition for who'd be happiest - maybe a raffle would raise money for something welcoming?
If XF can't stretch to covering Brogan's needs, or if they offer and Brogan has simply reached a point deep down of moving on, so be it.
We'll all be the poorer here. I've known about 5 of the major forum communities, and I belong to many online communities. Brogan's moderator skills are better than any I've seen in more than 10 years. I think that losing Brogan will not be good for XF. His kind of instant well targeted and resource rich support for new enquiries is a big reason why people buy ... and renew.
Jake and Slavik are good guys, none better in their areas of excellence. But Brogan was the heart of this community, not as a fluffy comment but as recognition of his unequalled skills and almost endless dedication.
THREE CHEERS FOR BROGAN!
At the same time his workload was enormous, and he was coping with a lot of complicated community interaction here as well as sheer quantity of support work, plus nastiness on other boards.
It's not surprising that it all got too much when he wasn't getting the support he needed.
Perhaps some part of what Brogan wanted was tricky for the team to do for him. That would be a tough call.
In the absence of any further info I'd say that almost anything would be worthwhile to change or put in place to keep someone like Brogan happily working in the service of XF.
He has been quite simply the centre of the XF community almost since it started. As Kier Mike and Ashley have become less and less available for very good reasons (success being one of them!) it has been Brogan who has nurtured the remarkable and distinctive community here over its life to date.
The software is superb. But without a good community for support, and healthy communication around add-ons, the core software just isn't that useful. We need help to understand it, and additions to customise and enrich it. One of the mighty strengths of XF is its capacity for customisation - but we can't do it without help.
WITH a strong community and good add-ons the core software is the crowning glory of it all.
It's been Brogan more than anyone else who has ensured that the core software has its vitally necessary support resources. Which has made XF the unequalled software it is.
I'm not going to ask Brogan to come back. In his place I wouldn't want that pressure. I'd want to feel free and clear and "away." To be myself and feel into what I really want to do.
If in due course XF can go to Brogan and offer him what he needs and IF he accepted, few here would be happier than me. But I suspect there would be a big competition for who'd be happiest - maybe a raffle would raise money for something welcoming?
If XF can't stretch to covering Brogan's needs, or if they offer and Brogan has simply reached a point deep down of moving on, so be it.
We'll all be the poorer here. I've known about 5 of the major forum communities, and I belong to many online communities. Brogan's moderator skills are better than any I've seen in more than 10 years. I think that losing Brogan will not be good for XF. His kind of instant well targeted and resource rich support for new enquiries is a big reason why people buy ... and renew.
Jake and Slavik are good guys, none better in their areas of excellence. But Brogan was the heart of this community, not as a fluffy comment but as recognition of his unequalled skills and almost endless dedication.
THREE CHEERS FOR BROGAN!
DRE
Well-known member
The heck are they suing em for then?
Kevin
Well-known member
In short... because they can. Find the page Shamil keeps updated with the various US court documents that are public and draw your own conclusions.
mrGTB
Well-known member
Because they claim XenForo could not have been created and released 12 months later, unless they was working on it already previously in background while still under the 12 months agreement leaving obligation with IB not to develop another forum software within that first 12 month time-scale. That's the general gist of it. So lets imagine XenForo was released 14 months later, that means they only had 2 months to create it, otherwise they broke contact in the eyes of IB.
But there is much more involved in it than just that of course.
DRE
Well-known member
Oh so that's what Adrian's IB skype screenshots were about. smh @ Kier having that dude on his skype.
Grover
Well-known member
Yes, it has been a while since I logged/delved into this thriving community...
To be precise...
So, after 14 months I consciously take this opportunity to post. I had hoped it would be for a better reason (continuing offering product suggestions for this outstanding refreshing product for example), but when I witnessed the current happenings over here I felt I could not not say something.
One of my last posts when I left for a big break was about... Paul (Brogan):
And now my first post will also be about this outstanding XenForo moderator. I just read Morgain's post:
... and subscribe to her post entirely. Indeed, we don't know what happened and there's always several sides to a story (we don't know KMA's version). Having said that it comes across to me (as a customer and big fan of the product and people behind it) as quite disturbing that a (the) top moderator publically accuses certain people of not having treated him well. Again, we don't know the complete story at all, but it is a big thing that such an important moderator feels he needs to make a statement by actually stopping his more than outstanding work. Apparently (according to his words) to be able to achieve what the customer base/company community needed since a while.
From my point of view (and I guess it's shared by many) Paul counted for 3. With all due respect to the other ones (Dean and Lawrence): we hardly saw the other Moderators. With Paul the community lost more then just 1 moderator.
So I would like to take this -unfortunate- opportunity to join the many, many many people/customers/community members to wholeheartedly thank you, Paul, for your unparalleled passion, commitment and visibility. Thank you.
Pointing fingers to people directly is not going to help: as an outsider one doesn't have the complete story. What everybody should do is point their fingers to the one direction that we all look forward to: the future. I wish Xenforo a very bright future.
To be precise...
So, after 14 months I consciously take this opportunity to post. I had hoped it would be for a better reason (continuing offering product suggestions for this outstanding refreshing product for example), but when I witnessed the current happenings over here I felt I could not not say something.
One of my last posts when I left for a big break was about... Paul (Brogan):
And now my first post will also be about this outstanding XenForo moderator. I just read Morgain's post:
... and subscribe to her post entirely. Indeed, we don't know what happened and there's always several sides to a story (we don't know KMA's version). Having said that it comes across to me (as a customer and big fan of the product and people behind it) as quite disturbing that a (the) top moderator publically accuses certain people of not having treated him well. Again, we don't know the complete story at all, but it is a big thing that such an important moderator feels he needs to make a statement by actually stopping his more than outstanding work. Apparently (according to his words) to be able to achieve what the customer base/company community needed since a while.
From my point of view (and I guess it's shared by many) Paul counted for 3. With all due respect to the other ones (Dean and Lawrence): we hardly saw the other Moderators. With Paul the community lost more then just 1 moderator.
So I would like to take this -unfortunate- opportunity to join the many, many many people/customers/community members to wholeheartedly thank you, Paul, for your unparalleled passion, commitment and visibility. Thank you.
Pointing fingers to people directly is not going to help: as an outsider one doesn't have the complete story. What everybody should do is point their fingers to the one direction that we all look forward to: the future. I wish Xenforo a very bright future.
Lone Wolf
Well-known member
From what I can work out Brogan's main gripes were lack of moderation support and no action on his requests to update the users.
As a regular reader of these forums I would fully agree with the fact that XF needed more moderators, I dont think anyone here would disagree with that.
Unlike others I'm not that desperate for Kier to keep logging in and saying 'hi' every few days but I can understand why a lot of members became slightly worried when he disappeared. The reason for this worry was that Kier created an expectation which no-one can live up to. He was on the forums all the time and continuously posting tidbits here and there. He was regularly interacting with the community which is quite unusual or a lead developer.
Now I accept that there is no way he could keep this up AND concentrate on developing the software plus dealing with personal/legal issues. The real issue ISNT the fact he stopped posting, the real issue IS the fact that he failed to communicate this to the community at large. This in turn led to the more excitable community members coming up with outlandish conspiracy theories.
The longer Kier left making a reply, the worst it got and then it reached a stage where he had left it so long that making a reply would indicate there was something wrong behind the scenes. So suddenly he was in a catch 22 situation.
If Brogan was telling KAM to make some sort of announcement or update then he was the only perceptive one on the XF team. I still think Kier needs to just be honest with the members here and say 'I wont be posting for XYZ reasons' and end the whole crazy conspiracy merry go round.
From what I've seen of Brogans reasons he seems to be the only sane one around.
PS - I'm saying this as a well wisher of XenForo because I love the software just like we all do otherwise we wouldnt be here. What worries me is that lines have been drawn in the sand and the only losers will be those who invested time and money in this product.
As a regular reader of these forums I would fully agree with the fact that XF needed more moderators, I dont think anyone here would disagree with that.
Unlike others I'm not that desperate for Kier to keep logging in and saying 'hi' every few days but I can understand why a lot of members became slightly worried when he disappeared. The reason for this worry was that Kier created an expectation which no-one can live up to. He was on the forums all the time and continuously posting tidbits here and there. He was regularly interacting with the community which is quite unusual or a lead developer.
Now I accept that there is no way he could keep this up AND concentrate on developing the software plus dealing with personal/legal issues. The real issue ISNT the fact he stopped posting, the real issue IS the fact that he failed to communicate this to the community at large. This in turn led to the more excitable community members coming up with outlandish conspiracy theories.
The longer Kier left making a reply, the worst it got and then it reached a stage where he had left it so long that making a reply would indicate there was something wrong behind the scenes. So suddenly he was in a catch 22 situation.
If Brogan was telling KAM to make some sort of announcement or update then he was the only perceptive one on the XF team. I still think Kier needs to just be honest with the members here and say 'I wont be posting for XYZ reasons' and end the whole crazy conspiracy merry go round.
From what I've seen of Brogans reasons he seems to be the only sane one around.
PS - I'm saying this as a well wisher of XenForo because I love the software just like we all do otherwise we wouldnt be here. What worries me is that lines have been drawn in the sand and the only losers will be those who invested time and money in this product.
Anthony Parsons
Well-known member
Maybe just more due to Kier taking some time out due to the pressures associated with the lawsuit, thus Brogan's messages fell on over-worked and stressed ears. It seems KAM seem to have come around now from the announcement, though maybe just too late for Paul who is worked into the ground.
I always find the best approach to forum moderation is lots of moderators, with only a couple being global and the rest assigned to a specific forum/s. That way, you always have redundancy and nobody becomes overtly pressured, especially when it is a voluntary role.
I'm sure there are lots of people here more than capable of helping out if XF require mods to assist helping moderate forum discussion.
I always find the best approach to forum moderation is lots of moderators, with only a couple being global and the rest assigned to a specific forum/s. That way, you always have redundancy and nobody becomes overtly pressured, especially when it is a voluntary role.
I'm sure there are lots of people here more than capable of helping out if XF require mods to assist helping moderate forum discussion.
DRE
Well-known member
Thats what I do. Saves lots of time.
Lone Wolf
Well-known member
See this is something I dont like, it's one of the main reasons I almost didn't switch to XenForo. There is no 'edit' record which leaves the system open to staff abuse.
If you check the link below I pointed this out in Sept 2011 and even gave an example of how it could be abused...
http://xenforo.com/community/threads/suggestion-post-edit-history.2883/page-6#post-253377
Whenever I or one of my mods edit a users post we add 'edited by XYZ' into the post to ensure that users know the post has been tampered with. I dont like the fact that no such warning was added to Brogan's post.
DRE
Well-known member
Both Syndol's User Essentials and Robbos Edit History addon solves this issue. Not on here though since Xenforo.com forums is supposed to be as basic as possible so new customers can see what they're buying.
DRE
Well-known member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
8f. to save one's face: to avoid being disgraced or humiliated. Similarly, to save (another's) face. Hence save-face adj. = face-saving … Originally used by the English community in China, with reference to the continual devices among the Chinese to avoid incurring or inflicting disgrace. The exact phrase appears not to occur in Chinese, but ‘to lose face’ (tiu lien), and ‘for the sake of his face’, are common.
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