Ashamed to be British

"Ashamed to be British" <- why? I'm not rioting, you're not rioting, you really shouldn't feel shame for other idiots mistakes.

Doesn't matter, the idiots tarnish the name "British". I for one am proud of my heritage and for what the British people have done for the entire world over it's long history. There have been some ups and downs (the big one that comes to mind is the slavery trade, we started it but we also ended it) but on the high the world has evolved quite a far bit because of what Britain has done.
 
How could anything crack that dry exterior known as the British sense of humour (spelled your way, even though the spell checker is screaming at me)?
:D
 
Any updates? Are things getting better in the UK?

Yep, everything is just about back to normal, for now.

The politicians are playing to the public gallery in respect of various kneejerk demands, which is to be expected, such as:

Baton rounds, rubber bullets, can be used by the police - they were already available to use, but rejected by the police as from the experience of their use in Northern Ireland, they tend to make matters worst.

Water cannon available for mainland police forces at 24-hour notice, we have about 6 in Northern Ireland that can be shipped over, but the police had already made it very clear that they rejected their use in the situations encountered over those 3/4 days in the various cities.

At least the Prime Minister, and indeed the police, have totally ruled out putting troops on the streets - riot control is a matter for the police, who are trained in such matters, and not the army, which are not. Although the PM said consideration would be given to using troops behind the scenes, for example in police stations managing the cells, in order to free up more police for the front-line, should anything like this happen again.

Also the politicians seem to be moving on from headline grabbing nonsense that this was all just about criminality & greed, the PM has gone back to using the buzzwords of 'Broken Britain', that he was using on the run up to last year's general election, but stopped using once he was elected. Sadly, he has not come up with any proposals to repair 'Broken Britain', yet..

I think everyone agrees it was 'criminality'! Saying that we have criminals because of criminality is a meaningless tautology. Criminality is the state of committing crimes so of course, by definition, where we have crime, we have criminality. It explains nothing, it says nothing about the underlying causes and it tells us nothing about how to fix it.

And when it come to 'greed', that certainly is right regarding the looting, which both the politicians and the 'popular press', you know the tabloids - the ones that are currently being investigated for their own criminality, like to focus on.

What they ignore is how all this kicked-off, with running battles with the police, police vehicles being smashed & set on fire together with buses, private cars, shops, offices and even people's homes - none of which financially benefited those carrying-out these actions. The looting, the opportunist 'greed' crime only came after law & order had broken down, as is usual in riots across the world, but it's so much easier to focus on the looting and just dismiss it all as 'criminality'.

The other funny thing is all the ill-informed public ranting about the unemployed 'under-class' - the list of those appearing before the courts include many employed in jobs, mostly minimum wage jobs, but including, for example, a teaching assistant, a graphic designer and several students that had possible bright futures ahead of them, until their court appearance.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED.

However, the 5-10% of the population that are not in any way enfranchised by society are revolting. As the gap between the most and the least widens, as the police, politicians & big business (from the banks to the media) are shown to be incompetent, corrupt and downright oppressive towards this group, and as they seem to slip further and further away from being able to sustain themselves.

The prices for basics are increasing at rates of up to & over 20%, whilst wages, or benefits, are largely frozen - yet they see millionaires being allowed to get richer and richer, politicians on the fiddle, backers pocketing bonuses or pay-offs running into millions, having virtually bankrupted the country - they have little reason to stick to the rules, and it appears it takes just one final spark to 'allow' them to go for it. :(

Frankly, as someone that is fairly well off and comfortable, I've just about had enough of the mess this country is in - caused by the politicians & super-rich - and how the rest of us are having to pay to clear the mess-up. :mad:
 
Well our apartment apparently is still standing so that's a good sign...

The paltry sentences handed out so far though won't change anything.

Glad your apartment is OK.

Re-the 'paltry sentences handed out so far', most seem to relate to stupid minor offences, like the guy nicking cakes from a trashed shop - the more serious cases are being referred to the Crown Courts, because the Magistrate Courts can only sentence for up to 6 months in prison.

TBH, I am worried about the cases so far, with the odd exception, most seem to be very minor cases - stupid people caught on CCTV nicking items from shops already trashed - the real trouble makers were masked-up and most are unlikely to get caught. :(

And the police have finally accepted that standing back and watching the looters cart stuff away was probably the wrong tactic :rolleyes:

TBF, it was only in London on Monday night when that actually happened on any scale, and the the police were somewhat taken by surprise by the scale of rioting and they simply didn't have enough numbers on the streets, nor in the right places.

On the other hand, with government plans to reduce police numbers, freeze their pay, reduce their overtime payments, increase their pension contributions, etc - one could understand them allowing things to get out of control, in order to send a warning to the government about how bad things could get if the government does 'screw' them over. ;)
 
martial law, i.e., nobody on public streets after sundown... activate army national guard, which is basically local version of us military

Thanks, but no thanks.

Despite all the media hype, the only place that control was totally lost on a big scale was in London on Monday night, the next night things were under control again - without using rubber bullets, water canon or troops on the street.

Policing by public consent is the British way, and despite the worst rioting for generations it has proved to be the right way.

I am proud to be British.
 
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On the other hand, with government plans to reduce police numbers, freeze their pay, reduce their overtime payments, increase their pension contributions, etc - one could understand them allowing things to get out of control, in order to send a warning to the government about how bad things could get if the government does 'screw' them over. ;)

No sorry, but I don't understand letting things get out of hand "as a warning to the government". They are supposed to be there to serve and protect the people.
Their fight with the government should not, in any way, shape, or form, affect that initiative. If it does, then that is frightening, and I would not ever want to have to depend on that kind of police officer to protect me and mine.
 
Policing by public consent is the British way, and despite the worst rioting for generations it has proved to be the right way.

I am proud to be British.
I truly cannot wrap my mind around this, but rather than claiming we're right and you're wrong, I'm envious of a nation civilized enough where this is possible and effective.
 
No sorry, but I don't understand letting things get out of hand "as a warning to the government". They are supposed to be there to serve and protect the people.
Their fight with the government should not, in any way, shape, or form, affect that initiative. If it does, then that is frightening, and I would not ever want to have to depend on that kind of police officer to protect me and mine.

Oh, I totally agree 100%. As I said 'one could understand', understanding something doesn't necessarily make it right or acceptable, and I am certainly not saying that is what happened on Monday night in London, although there's a lot of internet chatter suggesting that could have played it's part, personally I am not convinced.

My gut feeling is they just got caught out unprepared by dozens of separate trouble hotspots popping up right across London, which is understandable because nothing like that had ever happened before. Lessons need to be learnt, so that plans can be put into place to better deal with it should it ever occur again.
 
Should have drafted the PSNI over..
This. The police have plenty of riot experience over here :V

Calling in the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) would not have helped, where order seriously & totally broke down, in London on Monday and to a lesser degree Manchester & the West Midlands on Tuesday, control was taken again the next night anyway, which would have been the earliest any PSNI officers could have been deployed.

However, if water cannon is ever required, I can see PSNI officers been deployed with them as the mainland forces have no training in their use.

I truly cannot wrap my mind around this, but rather than claiming we're right and you're wrong, I'm envious of a nation civilized enough where this is possible and effective.

TBF, there's plenty of people in this country that don't get it, hence so many knee-jerk calls for rubber bullets, water cannon, live rounds & troops to be used.

But, lets compare our worst riots in a 100 years to the Los Angeles riots of 1992, which I think was the last big one in the U.S. - ours lasted a maximum of 2 or 3 days in each area, the LA riots went on for 6 days. That despite the LA Police being armed, the National Guard being called in and finally both U.S. army soldiers and marines arriving. Our death total directly linked to the riots is 4 with dozens injured, in LA it was 53 and thousands injured.

Now, I accept it's difficult to make a direct comparison, but the gap is so wide, my gut feeling is the harder the authorities go in, the worst the reaction is from the rioters, and the whole thing just escalates to ever higher levels. Therefore, the best way to deal with such troubles is to flood the area with large numbers of police, not weapons & troops.
 
But, lets compare our worst riots in a 100 years to the Los Angeles riots of 1992, which I think was the last big one in the U.S. - ours lasted a maximum of 2 or 3 days in each area, the LA riots went on for 6 days. That despite the LA Police being armed, the National Guard being called in and finally both U.S. army soldiers and marines arriving. Our death total directly linked to the riots is 4 with dozens injured, in LA it was 53 and thousands injured.
Now this is a common misconception about our side of the pond. You may see local police, riot police, SWAT and even, on rare occasions, elements of the state's National Guard dealing with domestic rioting, but you will never see it dealt with by active duty soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines.

The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits members of the military from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property within the United States and prohibits Army and Air Force personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Navy and Marine Corps are explicitly prohibited by Department of Defense directives, under any circumstances.

We firmly believe that it is far too easy to have basic liberties taken from you when your own military can be used against you as a "police force".
 
Now this is a common misconception about our side of the pond. You may see local police, riot police, SWAT and even, on rare occasions, elements of the state's National Guard dealing with domestic rioting, but you will never see it dealt with by active duty soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines.

The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits members of the military from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property within the United States and prohibits Army and Air Force personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Navy and Marine Corps are explicitly prohibited by Department of Defense directives, under any circumstances.

We firmly believe that it is far too easy to have basic liberties taken from you when your own military can be used against you as a "police force".

I read that during the week on wikipedia, here's the specific pieces:

Fourth day (Saturday, May 2)
On the fourth day, 4,000 soldiers and Marines arrived from Fort Ord and Camp Pendleton to disperse the crowds and restore order. Soon after the military arrived, order was restored.
Sixth day (Monday, May 4)
Although Mayor Bradley lifted the curfew, signaling the official end of the riots, sporadic violence and crime continued for a few days afterward. Schools, banks, and businesses reopened. Federal troops did not stand down until May 9; the state guard remained until May 14; and some soldiers remained as late as May 27

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
 
More than 10 million Britons, about one in six, live in public housing. (16%)

Only 5% of Canada’s households live in non-market social housing (defined here as including government-owned public housing, non-profit housing, and non-profit housing cooperatives) – the smallest social housing sector of any Western nation except for the United States.

16 percent seems like alot !
 
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