Why does it take so long?

[Dixie McCall]

I am very curious and mean absolutely no malice or anything negative but how come it takes so long to come out with new versions and upgrades? Not just with xenforo.

Is the tech/code behind forums extremely difficult to do?

Do people generally do this just part time and have other jobs?

Hard to find good tech people?

I absolutely have no idea how it works.

Be nice in your response as I’m generally curious in a nice way and would like to know how it works behind the scenes technically speaking. I have much respect for people who know all this tech stuff. TY

 

[Arantor]

It’s not so much that forums specifically are hard to do, but tech done well actually takes time.

In the case of XF specifically, the dev team isn’t particularly huge, and they help out with things like XF Cloud as well as support tickets (because sometimes it just needs a dev)

Also, it’s usually easier to build something from scratch than it is to take an existing mature thing and retrofit things onto it - if nothing else you need to try to make sure you don’t break what’s already there, and you have to provide what is effectively an upgrade path.

Also specifically in the case of self hosting, it’s more time consuming to build that than anything just for cloud because you can’t control what hosting environment it’ll be put onto - when you know exactly what server stack etc it’ll be on, you can tune for that, but right now the XF team can’t even know in advance something as fundamental as “is the server Windows or Linux” and that alone has repercussions - Windows style filenames are things like C:\Tools\Laragon\www\XenForo while Linux style filenames are things like /home/arantor/public_html (and \ has a special meaning generally in PHP)

Software development is also often far more a creative journey than people realise.

 

[beerForo]

Be nice in your response

My nice response would be, if you are not waiting for any particular features that have been announced, then just enjoy the current version which is feature-rich and relatively bug free. Too many forum owners get caught up in the waiting game when they don't even know what they are waiting for. 2.3 is a fantastic piece of software. Whatever comes next will surely be fantastic too, however long it takes.

 

[Dixie McCall]

My nice response would be, if you are not waiting for any particular features that have been announced, then just enjoy the current version which is feature-rich and relatively bug free. Too many forum owners get caught up in the waiting game when they don't even know what they are waiting for. 2.3 is a fantastic piece of software. Whatever comes next will surely be fantastic too, however long it takes.

Thank you beerForo (your screen name always makes me laugh) I am just curious about the technical aspect of software development, in this case, forum software. I just would like to know the steps it takes, how long it takes etc. It looks so complicated.

 

[digitalpoint]

In my experience, about 10% of the time spent coding is for the underlying functionality, then the other 90% is handling all the "what ifs" and making sure users can't do unintended things. It's always a LOT more work coding something that someone else would use vs. something for myself.

That being said, XenForo isn't internally "simple". The devs tend to spend extra time doing things "right" (there's a few things I could argue otherwise about... but generally that's the case). There's a difference between coding something "quickly" and coding something "properly". Doing it right saves you time in the long run because you don't need to revisit/redo it as much in the future.

 

[beerForo]

Thank you beerForo (your screen name always makes me laugh) I am just curious about the technical aspect of software development, in this case, forum software. I just would like to know the steps it takes, how long it takes etc. It looks so complicated.

They have been transparent about the delays:

Post in thread 'XF 2.3 ?'

Jan 9, 2023

So, I will somewhat unofficially address some things that have been mentioned in this thread.

While we take on board the feedback about lack of communication, it wouldn’t really change where we are today, nor would it have necessarily directly addressed any of the conspiracy theories.

• Mike left towards the end of the completion of the Cloud platform to which he contributed to.
• Mike has not been happy as a developer (in general) for many years and he has taken extended breaks during the last few years.
• There are no rifts between any members of the XF team.
• XF continues to...

• Chris D

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• 
• 

Thread 'Coming soon: XenForo 2.4'

Sep 13, 2024

We are excited to announce the upcoming release of XenForo 2.4, bringing you exciting new features and improvements!

While XenForo 3.0 continues to be developed behind the scenes, we've decided to harness the team's enthusiasm and momentum to deliver an interim update that will enhance your XenForo experience sooner than you might have expected. This approach allows us to provide you with valuable improvements without waiting for the full style overhaul that 3.0 will bring.

XenForo 2.4 will focus on quality-of-life enhancements for admins, moderators, and users alike. We're dedicated to...

• XenForo
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Announcements

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• 

 

[Sim]

Just read through the bug forum - you'll see thousands of edge cases which the devs have had to stop working on new features to fix.

Developing software that's going to be used on thousands of different servers, each running different software stacks - all while being used by end users on thousands of different devices, each with their own unique quirks - is really, really difficult.

Just look at the challenges in getting a good rich text editor working - there is a huge list of bugs related to that part alone.

Then add the external factors of a changing environment - new versions of PHP, deprecated libraries that are no longer supported and need to be replaced, third party systems that change or break, the list of things that require developer attention and prevents them from focusing on new features - is endless.

 

[Arantor]

Thank you beerForo (your screen name always makes me laugh) I am just curious about the technical aspect of software development, in this case, forum software. I just would like to know the steps it takes, how long it takes etc. It looks so complicated.

A computer is a robot. It will do exactly and precisely what it is told. Imagine explaining any process you follow at work, to someone who will do exactly what you tell them, without guessing and without imagination. Imagine every eventuality you have to then explain, what you have to check in what order. You have to do all the thinking, because your instructions will be followed exactly.

There are days I feel like I’m on the wrong side of r/MaliciousCompliance because it’s doing exactly what I told it.

 

[Deleted member 184953]

You explain what development is not why it takes so much time... and it takes a lot of time, at least regarding XF, because they are too few to go faster... no matter the complexity of a task, if you are alone or several to perform it then its execution time is different. Of course there are incompressible delays but the key factor here is human resources.

 

[Deleted member 184953]

Chris focussed on the new editor for long weeks (months?) While Kier reserved his time for the new style... they are 2 developers who were not available for other projects, probably that they took care of day-to-day business but, from what I could understand, they had only one objective at that time.

And what about the implementation of XF Cloud which seems to have required all the forces involved? Again, current affairs have been managed but for the rest it has been the flat calm for long months.

Development, code, as indicated above by an imminent developer is complex and is a rather slow cycle, if in addition you add the fact that the team is restricted then you get significant delays.

That said, regarding XF, even if the suggestions are very numerous, the bug reports even more numerous, the software is robust and complete enough to ensure 95% of the tasks expected of a forum software.

 

[Jake70]

Why do some have to keep coming on here and nagging about when it's going to be ready? It will be released when it's ready; it's very simple. It’s frustrating to see some individuals repeatedly asking when it will be ready. The truth is, it will be released when it’s finalized—a straightforward and important process.

 

[Arantor]

You explain what development is not why it takes so much time... and it takes a lot of time, at least regarding XF, because they are too few to go faster... no matter the complexity of a task, if you are alone or several to perform it then its execution time is different. Of course there are incompressible delays but the key factor here is human resources.

I was responding to the OP, who seemed to want an understanding of why development is slow and by their own admission some understanding of what development is.

I note that adding more developers to a project does not in any way guarantee an increase in development speed.

I’m also not at all convinced the key factor here is human resources - it’s a factor but it’s far from the only factor. Building from scratch with a blank canvas is often quicker than a major reworking of an otherwise mature product, depending on what exactly you’re trying to do (consider that XF 1.0 was 2 people in about a year)

 

[Dixie McCall]

They have been transparent about the delays:

Post in thread 'XF 2.3 ?'

Jan 9, 2023

So, I will somewhat unofficially address some things that have been mentioned in this thread.

While we take on board the feedback about lack of communication, it wouldn’t really change where we are today, nor would it have necessarily directly addressed any of the conspiracy theories.

• Mike left towards the end of the completion of the Cloud platform to which he contributed to.
• Mike has not been happy as a developer (in general) for many years and he has taken extended breaks during the last few years.
• There are no rifts between any members of the XF team.
• XF continues to...

• Chris D

• 
• 
• 

Thread 'Coming soon: XenForo 2.4'

Sep 13, 2024

We are excited to announce the upcoming release of XenForo 2.4, bringing you exciting new features and improvements!

While XenForo 3.0 continues to be developed behind the scenes, we've decided to harness the team's enthusiasm and momentum to deliver an interim update that will enhance your XenForo experience sooner than you might have expected. This approach allows us to provide you with valuable improvements without waiting for the full style overhaul that 3.0 will bring.

XenForo 2.4 will focus on quality-of-life enhancements for admins, moderators, and users alike. We're dedicated to...

• XenForo
• Replies: 0
• Forum: Announcements

• 
• 
• 

I was not complaining about anything in the least. Just asking because the tech and time aspect of creating forum software is something I’ve always wondered about . TBH, I really don’t care when anything is released - it makes no difference to me whatsoever. Not being a tech person, I find the whole thing fascinating and the ability of people to understand all this is amazing to me. I wish I could come in the office and see how things are done tech and time wise. I used life saving machines at work that are complex to use combined with the patient’s health or crisis, and I’ve also wondered how much tech it takes to make these machines and computers. It’s so fascinating to me . That’s all. I’m really not trying to stir up anything. I’m just pissed I didn’t inherit my dad’s computer brain. lol He was great mechanically AND tech wise but I’m only good with the physical mechanics of a machine, not the computer guts of it I’ve tried to learn but I also get distracted because it’s so boring and hurts my eyes and brain. lol It’s so weird how adverse I am in learning to code.

Why do some have to keep coming on here and nagging about when it's going to be ready? It will be released when it's ready; it's very simple. It’s frustrating to see some individuals repeatedly asking when it will be ready. The truth is, it will be released when it’s finalized—a straightforward and important process.

 

[Dixie McCall]

And as written in my initial post, I wasn’t referring to just Xenforo.

 

[Dixie McCall]

The distraction when I try to learn code is real. No bueno.

 

[Suzanne O]

The staff here take their time with their software.
They have to make sure every bug is taken care of, every customer's requests are taken care of, and that the new products they plan to use is a ok too.
They all have kids as well that need their father's help.

 

[beerForo]

@Dixie McCall no one thinks you are complaining, I offered those links so you could read an actual explanation of a delay to provide insight, that's all.

 

[Wildcat Media]

I used to write code for some proprietary web applications and it never failed--the client, or the site's visitors, would find ways to break something that I thought I had "idiot-proofed" or made easy to use. Or, the code had to be hardened for Internet exploits. So while writing the basic code wasn't a stretch, it's writing in all the extras to catch all of those edge cases that took more time and grief (including dozens of emails, calls, text messages, etc.) to handle.

And with getting older, my mind isn't made for working with code much anymore. These days I struggle through CSS/LESS, and XF's templating system just seems more complex to me the more I look at it (that's a "me" problem, not an XF problem). Yet I'm still able to work with it all somewhat successfully.

 

[Mr Lucky]

I am very curious and mean absolutely no malice or anything negative but how come it takes so long to come out with new versions and upgrades?

I suppose an equally viable question might be to respond with "how long do you think it should take?" I mean, if you've decided it takes so long, it might be reasonable to suppose you have some idea of what isn't so long.

 

[stromb0li]

I suppose an equally viable question might be to respond with "how long do you think it should take?" I mean, if you've decided it takes so long, it might be reasonable to suppose you have some idea of what isn't so long.

I don't want to stir the pot, but I agree the releases cycles are brutal with this software.

IMO it stems towards two problems:
1) No predictable release schedule
2) Lack of transparency.

1) Quarterly deployments (every 3-4 months) for even a patch release is insanely slow if you are working in the software industry. Major and even minor releases I totally understand a longer development cycle, but patches should not follow the same. Even Microsoft with monolithic release cycles ships on a known / predictable schedule at least monthly.

2) The other thing not helping XenForo is lack of transparency. I really hope this changes after 2.4, but currently development happens, things go dark for a couple months, then development happens, and repeat; no one knows anything beyond what happens real-time, any sense of long-term direction or goal is undefined.

I only see Jeremy or Chris interact with the community at this point, which is scary, given some of us are building our businesses on this software for commercial purposes. Heck, I have a support case that's been open for 3 months still unacknowledged, which is really concerning. The optics of Paul B being the front of community engagement just suddenly disappearing is weird. Whether or not he is part of XenForo doesn't matter, but it doesn't build confidence to have someone that has invested nearly 70k posts to just go dark.

Even seeing people post a photo of their garden is an update that builds a sense of a community is noticed and makes things feel like they are still being supported and there is energy behind what is going on. There is literally nothing from XF being shared now.