UK Online Safety Regulations and impact on Forums

The very definition of tyranny uses words like “cruel” and “oppressive”. I don’t actually feel oppressed by the requirements for content moderation per se (because realistically they’re 99% the same as what I’d be moderating for anyway, not least of which that half the illegal content stuff was already illegal anyway!) - but I do feel the bureaucracy of it is a much bigger deal than the moderation rules etc.

I’m not sure “death by bureaucracy” is covered under any country’s or dictionary’s definition of tyranny - and unlike you I actually live here and deal with other parts of the system.

It's good that you don't feel oppressed. And it's good that you don't have a problem with rules imposed on citizens are not imposed on the gov't. I'm sure your gov't is VERY happy about that. Mission accomplished for them. "Let them eat cake!"

Or as the Aussies say, "good on ya, mate." ;)
 
The First Amendment just says, amongst other things, that the government can’t pass laws curtailing free speech. That doesn’t mean they can’t give you other consequences to your free speech.

Incitement to violence is, I think, not protected - and hate speech can and has been used for raising punishments in other matters (even affirmed by SCOTUS)

But don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say I was happy about it, merely that I don’t share your view that this country is a dictatorship held by a tyrant.
 
I respect that other countries have other laws. It's none of my business. But if they impose their laws upon me from afar.... I have a problem. The simplest solution is to simply ban users from those countries. I am but one person and complying with the laws of my own country is quite enough. I have a real job. My forum isn't my job. It's a side hobby. I don't make money from it. Rather I'm paying out of my own pocket for it.

Complying with a myriad of foreign laws is impractical, not to mention abhorrent to my beliefs.

I will admit being amused by those who find my objection and refusal to comply.... objectionable.
 
The First Amendment just says, amongst other things, that the government can’t pass laws curtailing free speech. That doesn’t mean they can’t give you other consequences to your free speech.

Incitement to violence is, I think, not protected - and hate speech can and has been used for raising punishments in other matters (even affirmed by SCOTUS)
That is correct. There is no "Prior Restraint." However, if speech causes tangible damages, then there can be legal consequences. Slander, libel, incitement of riots, etc.

I understand how it works VERY well. :cool:
 
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I respect that other countries have other laws. It's none of my business. But if they impose their laws upon me from afar.... I have a problem. The simplest solution is to simply ban users from those countries. I am but one person and complying with the laws of my own country is quite enough. I have a real job. My forum isn't my job. It's a side hobby. I don't make money from it. Rather I'm paying out of my own pocket for it.

Complying with a myriad of foreign laws is impractical, not to mention abhorrent to my beliefs.

I will admit being amused by those who find my objection and refusal to comply.... objectionable.
You must ban several hundred million people immediately - the entirety of the EU violates your stated intent, and the nearly half a billion people who live there (yes, more than the US) all hit that criteria.

I’m not objecting to your beliefs - you do you - but don’t take the high ground about things you don’t actually have experience of.
 
LOL! What exactly is a "hate offence?" I hate brussel sprouts. I also hate people who back into parking spaces. ;)
You may make fun of it - but you clearly miss the point. What you basically say is: Hate offences or hateful speach do not exist. If you look at platforms like X (or just follow current the political debate culture, may they be in the US, in UK or in the EU) it seems quite impossible to deny that such a thing exists.

There are two questions:
1. How do we define it to be able to identify it reliably?
2. Do we want to tolerate it or not?

Seems that you want to tolerate it, therefore no need to even identify it for you. European culture is not willing to tolerate it as it has become obvious that such behaviour has done a lot of harm to people and the culture as such. In my opinion the same happened in the US - but to deal with that is not my cup of tea.
THIS is why my forum is cut off to all UK and EU countries. I have neither time nor tolerance for such silliness.
And there you have it.... the VERY definition of tyranny. You get what you tolerate, eh?
You are from the US, aren't you? So, according to your own definition you live in a tyranny - Mr Trump is extempt from the lawful consequences of his actions as he has been elected for president...
 
You must ban several hundred million people immediately - the entirety of the EU violates your stated intent, and the nearly half a billion people who live there (yes, more than the US) all hit that criteria.
And so I have... Using the GeoBlock feature.

What you basically say is: Hate offences or hateful speach do not exist.
Not at all what I'm saying. What should not exist, IMHO, is a government preemptively infringing on ANY speech. It is up to society and each individual how we speak. Personally, I do not ever engage in speech or behavior that would be considered prejudicial, bigoted, or racist. My own family could do one of those old commercials for the "United Colors of Benneton." Remember those?? :-)

What I object to is legal statutes that prohibit any kind of speech. I believe people have a Right to make asses of themselves... and suffer the SOCIAL consequences. But gov't defining what is acceptable speech??? That's a NO from me.

Seems that you want to tolerate it, therefore no need to even identify it for you. European culture is not willing to tolerate it as it has become obvious that such behaviour has done a lot of harm to people and the culture as such. In my opinion the same happened in the US - but to deal with that is not my cup of tea.
It can't be identified, as the goal posts are constantly moving. But if I lived in Europe, then I'd have to try to abide those laws or shut my forum down. However, I don't live there. (Incidentally, I grew up overseas.)

And if somehow EU / UK laws (regarding forums) can reach out and touch me from afar.... That's a SERIOUS problem that I can EASILY remedy (I think... I hope!). And so I have. Perhaps it's unfortunate in terms of global engagement. But my livelihood does not depend on my forum, thankfully.

You are from the US, aren't you? So, according to your own definition you live in a tyranny - Mr Trump is extempt from the lawful consequences of his actions as he has been elected for president...
I'm not even going to go there (politics), as it is beyond the scope of this discussion (and probably prohibited by the rules of this forum).

I feel bad for forum owners operating there, honestly. From what I've read here, compliance may become QUITE complicated and virtually impossible. It's dizzying just to read. And that's not good for forums. I wish you the best and hope for some reconsideration by the authorities there. Cheers!
🍻
 
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A fifteen page thread here, similar threads elsewhere and over a thousand pages of definitions and legislation on Ofcom's site and I still haven't the first clue of what I actually need to do on any of my sites to comply:poop:
 
What should not exist, IMHO, is a government preemptively infringing on ANY speech. It is up to society and each individual how we speak.
Well, you could basically use this approach for anything. Which would make any legislation undesirable, whatever topic it may affect. This is the cultural difference between the US and Europe (or maybe even between the US and the rest of the world): May people from the US have a huge distrust agains the (or any) government. Whereas elsewhere people consider the government the collectively elected common ground that (aside a lot of other things) protects the weaker ones within the society - the job of the government is to define rules that ensure a constructive society. So basically the government represents the society and therefor - even in your definition - has the job to a degree do define what's ok and what not in terms of speach. In opposite to what many Americans claim there is free speech in Europe but there is no right to insult. In the US people seem to have the opinion free speech must include the right to lie, to insult, to threaten others and so on. It is a completely different approach.
What I object to is legal statutes that prohibit any kind of speech. I believe people have a Right to make asses of themselves... and suffer the SOCIAL consequences. But gov't??? That's a NO from me.
In my perception practice shows that this does not work: Often enough it is not the people that insult that suffer social consequences (that only happens rarely) but those who get insultet. The aggressive liars are loud and silence the others and this has dramatic negative consequences on the society. That's not a society I want to live in. We start to suffer from this phaenomenon in Europe as well - it started with Trumps "alternative facts" invention years ago. And then it became worse. In the meantime it has reached an extend where it is considered to be no longer acceptable as it poisons the society and threatens the democratic process and it's basis. Loads of people suffer because of the misbehaviour of some and these "some" become more. This is why these legislations get invented. The intentions are good (and in my eyes necessary) - the practice is difficult and the legislation far from being perfect.
 
A fifteen page thread here, similar threads elsewhere and over a thousand pages of definitions and legislation on Ofcom's site and I still haven't the first clue of what I actually need to do on any of my sites to comply:poop:
Don’t worry, Ofcom don’t either.

What is definitely known: if you have pornographic content, age gating (with “suitable measures” whatever the hell that means) is required.

Everything else, go through the 17 categories and try to guess “are people likely to talk about this here” - does that sort of material fit inside your existing moderation rules (almost certainly yes), meaning that as long as you have reporting enabled, and you actually delete material that you deem against your TOS (=also against the criteria), that’s the start of good faith compliance.

Where it gets messy is whether people can upload images, whether people can use PMs (esp. PMs with attachments) and so on. Sadly even forums that have zero to do with sexual content have had groomers lurking - I have had that unfortunate job of extracting data from the DB to give to law enforcement to demonstrate the owner of the forum wasn’t aware of it.

I think PMs as a general comms method are problematic under this ruling, at least if you believe the P part ever meant private. Many forums I’ve been on have (wisely) started outlining that PMs are intended to be private but that they’re not above being reviewed by admins in the event of reporting or other reasons that the admin might feel appropriate for taking a look at them. If PMs are to remain, there will clearly need to be some method by which they can be sensibly moderated (since it’s clear Ofcom thinks reporting may not be enough, especially in more private settings)

One thing I would like to see happen by default is a move towards a help desk type setup - that instead of “PM the admin team” in the event of a problem, it can instead go to an area that admins can review (perhaps not for all staff?) with the key being intentional restriction of scope - it takes away an amount of the need for PMing (not all, mind) by funnelling it to a place that implicitly deweaponises it. If miscreants can’t just randomly PM everyone, it’s one vector that can’t be misused.

Largely we’re still waiting on more guidance though.
 
Well, you could basically use this approach for anything. Which would make any legislation undesirable, whatever topic it may affect.
That is the very definition of a Straw Man Argument. We're not talking about "any" topic. We're talking about the Right to Free Speech.
'Nuff said about that.

This is the cultural difference between the US and Europe (or maybe even between the US and the rest of the world): May people from the US have a huge distrust agains the (or any) government.
Yep. Definitely a cultural difference. But to be clear, we don't distrust "ANY form" of government. Another Straw Man. But we hold our Constitutionally Protected Rights as THE priority. In fact, our Constitution, and specifically the Bill of Rights... It is important to note that our Rights are not granted by this document. They are GUARANTEED against infringement of those Rights by the gov't.

The US Constitution isn't a list of what the People can do. It's a document that enshrines what the gov't can and cannot do. It's an instruction manual for the gov't. Our Rights (as guaranteed by the Constitution) are subject neither to the democratic process (majority rule / public vote) nor to arguments grounded in social utility (as is being argued here in this thread). We are the only country in the world that enshrines the Rights of the People in a document that is prohibitive to the government.

Our Rights cannot be taken. They can only be surrendered.

In my perception practice shows that this does not work: Often enough it is not the people that insult that suffer social consequences (that only happens rarely) but those who get insultet.
Other people cannot offend or insult you. You can only CHOOSE to BE offended or insulted. It's a choice.

When I was a kid, our parents taught us "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but names can never hurt you." Imagine that.
 
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We are the only country in the world that enshrines the Rights of the People in a document that is prohibitive to the government.
Well, this very arrogant attitude ("we are the US, we are better and worth more than everybody else, individually as well as as a nation and we are always right") together with a complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about (let alone respect for) other countries is possibly responsible for a lot of the issues that the US have - internally as well as with the rest of the world.

Other people cannot offend or insult you. You can only CHOOSE to BE offended or insulted. It's a choice.
If this works for you - fine. But even with an attitude like that you can easily come into a situation where this simply does not work any more. Due to illness, due to personal emotional instability, due to poverty - there are many possiblities where your attitude could prove not stable enough within seconds. You can consider yourself lucky if you'll never have to make this experience yourself.

They are GUARANTEED against infringement of those Rights by the gov't.
Guess what: Most countries do have something similar in one way or another. The difference is: In most (western) civilizations this is relevant to limit the possible range of actions that a government can do - but the basic level of trust of people towards the government is high enough that they do not have to toot this out proudly constantly - it is simply a given and considered so normal that there's no need making a faff. And - in opposite to what you say about the US - in possibly most of those countries it is also the job of the government to protect the individual from bad actions from other individuals, especially to protect the weak against misbehaviour of the strong and powerful. The US is much more "survival of the fittest" - probably that's why the idea of collectively payed public medical care is considered socialistic by many in the US while in most other nations this principle seems to be considered one of the best inventions since sliced bread (and many US citizens come to the same conclusion if they have experienced it themselves in one of those countries). ;)
 
Chinese companies and gov't do not have Rights in the US. And they definitely don't have a right to spy on us. Darn! ;)
... while at the same time US companies like Facebook and many others do the same in basically all countries around the world and the future US president openly threats to invade Greenland, to inhale Canada as a US state and more things like that. ;)
 
Well, this very arrogant attitude ("we are the US, we are better and worth more than everybody else, individually as well as as a nation and we are always right") together with a complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about (let alone respect for) other countries is possibly responsible for a lot of the issues that the US have - internally as well as with the rest of the world.
I never implied we were "better." I stated a fact about our very unique Constitution. I can't help what you infer. The US system is quite unique. And it has its own warts. It's not perfect. Hardly. This isn't based on some "arrogant" assumption. It's provable fact. There is no other Constitution or national document that mirrors the US Constitution. I have not lived my life in a bubble. I spent almost my entire childhood overseas. I've traveled extensively. My own family is quite "international" and "diverse." :-)

Sadly, even most Americans can't recite 3 of the 10 Amendments in the Bill of Rights. We have a TON of ignorance on the subject. Ha! I bet most Europeans could recite more of the Amendments in the US BoR than most Americans. Sad but true. Europeans have a much better grasp on geography and politics than most Americans. I bet most Canadians could name all 50 US States on a blank map, while most Americans can't even name (never mind label on a blank map) the Canadian provinces.

But our 1st Amendment (Free Speech) is fairly iron-clad. And it is unique in the world in that sense. There are no exceptions. Prior Restraint has been ruled unconstitutional. That doesn't mean you're free to cause damages. So, there can be consequences AFTER the fact, if tangible and provable damages result from your speech. And those consequences are from the damages, not the speech. You cannot be arrested, jailed, or fined for the speech itself. And sadly we're seeing reports of that in the UK... people arrested for Facebook posts. Or are those false reports?


If this works for you - fine. But even with an attitude like that you can easily come into a situation where this simply does not work any more. Due to illness, due to personal emotional instability, due to poverty - there are many possiblities where your attitude could prove not stable enough within seconds. You can consider yourself lucky if you'll never have to make this experience yourself.
Never assume, eh? :-) I've been through stuff I wish nobody ever had to go through. Nevertheless, I stand by my position that being insulted is a choice. And anyone who is insulted or offended by what strangers say on the interwebz.... well, there are "issues." :)

Getting Older Happy Birthday GIF by All Better
 
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while at the same time US companies like Facebook and many others do the same in basically all countries around the world and the future US president openly threats to invade Greenland, to inhale Canada as a US state and more things like that. ;)
You're right! Facebook has engaged in censorship, for example. Ah, but here's the thing... Private entities are not subject to Constitutional laws such as Free Speech. Any private entity can censor anyone in their "house." The Constitution applies ONLY to the gov't. In my own business, I do not have to abide the Constitution. I can stipulate what my employees can say while on business property. No Free Speech Rights in the private sector. Again, the Constitution does not apply.

Aha! But there was a problem with that recently. The gov't told Facebook what to censor. This was openly admitted on both sides. NOW we have a Constitutional problem, as Facebook became an AGENT of the gov't. (That was when I quit Facebook.)

Now (last week) Facebook is backtracking and getting rid of the censorship. Fair weather friends, eh? I don't believe them (Zuckerberg) and won't be going back. So, yeah... we've recently had some infringements.
 
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