Mr Lucky
Well-known member
And don't forget the petition here:
Help creative musicians and composers.
Help creative musicians and composers.
This may be the end of European forums...
- Thread starter Triops
- Start date
RobinHood
Well-known member
It’s terrible to see so many of my favourite YouTube creators get caught up in the copyright strike mess of a system on their platform the last few months.
If YouTube can’t figure it out with the power of fair use and google behind them I do wonder how some forums will end up handling it. The ones that are big enough to attract attention, but without the budgets to manage any kind of potential onslaught of litigation.
If YouTube can’t figure it out with the power of fair use and google behind them I do wonder how some forums will end up handling it. The ones that are big enough to attract attention, but without the budgets to manage any kind of potential onslaught of litigation.
DragonByte Tech
Well-known member
I don't disagree with your post, but from what I gathered from watching Leonard French's videos on the matter, the reason why YT's copyright / DMCA handling system is such an absolute mess is that YouTube specifically wants to stay within "Safe Harbor" laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_harbor_(law)#United_States
It's my understanding that the only way companies can stay legal and use Safe Harbor as a defence against copyright infringement is if they can prove they "shoot first, ask questions later" when it comes to receiving copyright complaints. If YouTube required those filing DMCA requests to submit proof they own the content they wish to claim, and have it be reviewed, then there's a chance YT would be in violation of the SH clause. This is comparative to ISP's sending warning letters to consumers when the ISP is notified of an infringement committed by one of its customers.
Of course, that does mean that bad actors can submit false claims, but it would be up to the content creators themselves to sue for false DMCA claims, YouTube themselves couldn't get involved or they would no longer be within the SH clause.
It's my understanding that it would not be enough if YT forced content creators to sign statements saying they own the rights before uploading; if YT was no longer protected by SH then YT would still be on the hook for any infringement hosted on their platform.
The problem with relying on Fair Use is that Fair Use is not settled law; it hasn't actually been tested in court. It would be an absolute gamble as to whether the courts would side with content creators, so no-one is actually willing to take this to court in order to settle the law.
I'm very much not a lawyer and some or all of this may be wrong, this is my understanding of why the system sucks. If I'm right, it would make some amount of sense as to why the system works this way, as much as the system sucks.
While this primarily targets german board owners, it might be interesting for other countries too:
Foren gegen Upload-Filter - 477 Foren mit 19,6 Mio Mitgliedern gegen Art13
Online-Foren - Betreiber und Mitglieder – wehren sich gegen Upload-Filter für Communities! Diese 477 Foren mit 19,6 Millionen Mitgliedern unterstützen uns!
foren-gegen-uploadfilter.eu
StryGuardian
Active member
I think it's been partially settled in the Matt Hoss vs. H3H3 case.
Are EU forum owners liable if they move to non-EU servers, or does that even matter if they reside in the EU? I find the whole thing fascinating. I mean, it seems to me that EU internet users can use a VPN, and perhaps connect from Switzerland, to foil any blocked content. I have a feeling some sites will just choose to geo block EU IPs rather than have to wrestle with copyright stuff. Just seems easier. Some are still doing that over the GDPR.
Claverhouse
Active member
I'm already mulling over blocking American visitors from my sites, partly because of their media's creepy evasions of the GDPR, with ridiculously hard 'opt-outs', trying to force one to just acquiesce in being tracked by these buffoons of media entities, but it seems slightly pointless since they too can use VPNs...
Yeah, I don't know what it is about some U.S. media organizations and GDPR. They ask visitors to be patient but it seems to me that, with their resources, they would figured it all out long ago. It's not rocket science. They really just don't want to.
I do think, though, that things will only get worse once Articles 11/15 and 13/17 go into effect. I can see some sites not wanting to install a filter, which I've heard the EU now admits will be necessary, and not wanting to deal with all the copyright complaints, false positives and who knows what all. Others won't want to play by Article 11/15 rules and will just block EU news organizations. This whole thing is an ill-conceived mess.
I do think, though, that things will only get worse once Articles 11/15 and 13/17 go into effect. I can see some sites not wanting to install a filter, which I've heard the EU now admits will be necessary, and not wanting to deal with all the copyright complaints, false positives and who knows what all. Others won't want to play by Article 11/15 rules and will just block EU news organizations. This whole thing is an ill-conceived mess.
combatgamez
Active member
I will just block EU traffic. Seriously if the (people) in the EU arent prepared to stand up for their freedoms of speech then they probably dont deserve it... Next step will be the EU to ban all VPN's and make them illegal...
Kintaro
Well-known member
are you sure?
Such a law is already in progress in Germany. It has been suggested by our Bundesrat and will now soon be processed in our parliament (Bundestag).
The petition has already been handed over to german secretary of justice and the president of the european parliamemt, both ignored it. The bill was approved by european parliament on march 26 and will most likely get its final approval by eu council tomorrow, afterwards it will become active within a few days giving member states up to 2 years for Implementation into national law.
Mr Lucky
Well-known member
I don't understand the connection between copyright infringement and freedom of speech???
Kintaro
Well-known member
Here I can read AND ("and which have") and not OR... so IMHO if the website has a turnover below 10M € is enough.
D.O.A.
Well-known member
Losing your sovereignty? Or this absolutely shining example of the stupid laws you get from unelected bureaucracy? There is literally nothing of value gained with the EUSSR membership unless you're some global stakeholder or a German bank.
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Yes, as said before all 3 conditions must bet met, e.g and:
- less then 3 years
- less than 10M yearly turnover
- less than 5M monthy unique users
If any of those conditions is not met, eg. the site is older than 3 years, it is not excempted.
DroidOne
Well-known member
It seems that GDPR is a larger problem right now if all 3 conditions must bet met, as it's very hard to transfer ownership of a forum as things stand, so most forums will simply go the way of the dodo as soon as the owner isn't able to run them anymore.
We had thoughts on saving a 15 yr old forum with tons of posts recently, but found no way around GDPR, so it'll all be gone in a few weeks. We can't move over users before they agree to it, and since we only have a couple of weeks to move it, there's simply not enough time to gather a large enough user base for it to survive/remain self sustaining. And there's also the problem that some posts may contain personal information... Tricky situation unfortunately. We would be happy to run it, but we can't deal with any legal issues, and I think that goes for most medium/semi large board owners.
This is much more likely what will be end of many boards in Europe for the moment.
We had thoughts on saving a 15 yr old forum with tons of posts recently, but found no way around GDPR, so it'll all be gone in a few weeks. We can't move over users before they agree to it, and since we only have a couple of weeks to move it, there's simply not enough time to gather a large enough user base for it to survive/remain self sustaining. And there's also the problem that some posts may contain personal information... Tricky situation unfortunately. We would be happy to run it, but we can't deal with any legal issues, and I think that goes for most medium/semi large board owners.
This is much more likely what will be end of many boards in Europe for the moment.
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