Christmas is just a name. December 25 is not the actual birthday of Jezus, Christianity just choose this date because it suited them better. There's no reason one should be a Christian to celebrate Christmas. However I do agree with your critique on the materialism and superficiality.
The real value/message behind Christmas lost?
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John
Well-known member
Actually astronomically the evidence states that it is the correct date of Jesus' birth...and sorry, but it is indeed a Christian celebration (of course you don't have to be a Christian to observe it but it seems kind of odd to me to recognize and celebrate something one doesn't believe in)
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Actually astronomically the evidence states that it is the correct date of Jesus' birth...and sorry, but it is indeed a Christian celebration (of course you don't have to be a Christian to observe it but it seems kind of odd to me to recognize and celebrate something one doesn't believe in)
It may, or it may not. It doesn't really matter. Just like much of what we read in the Bible may not have actually happened, but it doesn't matter. The Bible isn't a history book and the events aren't meant to be an account of fact, but rather a faith proclamation of the truth. Truth and fact and not necessarily the same thing.
It may not be a fact that Jesus was born on December 25th. As a fact, it is unimportant. The truth is contained in the nativity narration of Luke:
If you accept that as the truth of the Christmas celebration, than the fact of the exact date of Jesus' birth isn't really that important.
Besides that, Judeans, as Jesus was, would never have celebrated birthdays!
dieketzer
Well-known member
oddly enough, easter is the one holiday that has retained most of its original meaning, despite being co opted.
the rabbit, the egg, and even the name 'easter'...
Evidence for April 17. About celebrating Christmas if you're not a Christian: why not? This time of the year was originally for celebrating solstice etc. Since Christmas is just a name, everyone can celebrate it.Actually astronomically the evidence states that it is the correct date of Jesus' birth...and sorry, but it is indeed a Christian celebration (of course you don't have to be a Christian to observe it but it seems kind of odd to me to recognize and celebrate something one doesn't believe in)
John
Well-known member
Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with this. The Bible is indeed a history book. The OT is the history of the Hebrew people whereas the NT is the history of the life of Jesus and the early ministries of the 12 disciples. I find truth and fact to be one and the same. The historical accounts are backed up by multiple eyewitness accounts across multiple writings outside of the Bible as well as the archeological record and it does matter...it confirms the truth contained within it and the reliability of that truth.
John
Well-known member
Christmas is the name of the Christian celebration which it's sole purpose is for Christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. You should at least be an honest atheist and say you are celebrating the solstice...wouldn't you agree?
I'm celebrating Christmas, because the reality is that it's the only thing that is celebrated during this time. Besides, most of the things we do during Christmas, are taken from other festivities that were originally celebrated, but simply disappeared from our culture. Just because I celebrate Christmas, doesn't mean I'm not honest. It just means I like to be with others and participate in things like decorating the Christmas tree and unpacking gifts (again, things that originally didn't have anything to do with Christianity). My point is: actions are more important than beliefsChristmas is the name of the Christian celebration which it's sole purpose is for Christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. You should at least be an honest atheist and say you are celebrating the solstice...wouldn't you agree?
PS: this video explains it better than I ever could: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSOso1iyJ-w&feature=player_embedded
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with this. The Bible is indeed a history book. The OT is the history of the Hebrew people whereas the NT is the history of the life of Jesus and the early ministries of the 12 disciples. I find truth and fact to be one and the same. The historical accounts are backed up by multiple eyewitness accounts across multiple writings outside of the Bible as well as the archeological record and it does matter...it confirms the truth contained within it and the reliability of that truth.
No, the Bible is a faith proclamation. It does contain verifiable historical events, to be sure. But it also contains some easily indentifiable historical innaccuracies as well. I'll take one example from the Luke 2:1, since I quote Luke above:
This is neither fact, nor historically accurate. Although universal registrations of Roman citizens are attested in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14 and enrollments in individual provinces of those who are not Roman citizens are also attested, such a universal census of the Roman world under Caesar Augustus is unknown outside the New Testament. Moreover, there are notorious historical problems connected with Luke's dating the census when Quirinius was governor of Syria, and the various attempts to resolve the difficulties have proved unsuccessful.
P. Sulpicius Quirinius became legate of the province of Syria in A.D. 6-7 when Judea was annexed to the province of
Syria. At that time, a provincial census of Judea was taken up. If Quirinius had been legate of Syria previously, it would have to have been before 10 B.C. because the various legates of Syria from 10 B.C. to 4 B.C. (the death of Herod)
are known, and such a dating for an earlier census under Quirinius would create additional problems for dating the beginning of Jesus' ministry (Luke 3:1, 23). A previous legateship after 4 B.C. (and before A.D. 6) would not fit with the dating of Jesus' birth in the days of Herod (Luke 1:5; Matthew 2:1).
Luke may simply be combining Jesus' birth in Bethlehem with his vague recollection of a census under
Quirinius (see also Acts 5:37) to underline the significance of this birth for the whole Roman world: through this child
born in Bethlehem peace and salvation come to the empire.
This becomes a perfect example of something that isn't historical and isn't factual, but is nonetheless a proclamation of truth.
Peggy
in memoriam 2016
I'm celebrating Christmas, because the reality is that it's the only thing that is celebrated during this time. Besides, most of the things we do during Christmas, are taken from other festivities that were originally celebrated, but simply disappeared from our culture. Just because I celebrate Christmas, doesn't mean I'm not honest. It just means I like to be with others and participate in things like decorating the Christmas tree and unpacking gifts (again, things that originally didn't have anything to do with Christianity). My point is: actions are more important than beliefs
Fair enough dutchbb...Merry Christmas
See?? It is possible to have a civilized conversation about religion.
Jose Amaral Mota
Active member
Waiting for someone to throw in the 'LION' or Decipher the 'DEAD SEA SCROLLS'...
Now that everyone here is happy....
Spoke to soon.... It still continues below.
Now that everyone here is happy....
Spoke to soon.... It still continues below.
John
Well-known member
@Fred - it depends on which source(s) you derive your information from. I can produce information that refutes everything you just posted about Luke 2:1 and beyond...shall we continue? Probably best not to here...let's just say you have your opinion and I have mine and it's doubtful the two will be the same on this particular train of thought. Hope you had a very Merry Christmas!
FreshFroot
Well-known member
Well I'm not Christian.. so what are you saying? That I shouldn't be able to celebrate it? Or celebrate something I might not believe in?
Personally, I have gone to church once too see how xmas is like with Christians and it was fun in church.
But for me xmas is more about seeing family and having a good time. Catching up with people and forgetting work, school, stress etc..etc..
it's a time to re-energize for the new year to come.
If your trying to make this into a religious topic. Well then anyone with any relgion can fight and say, "why doesn't the world celebrate X day". And everyone get's that day off.
So to me.. I'm not Christian so the part about Jesus and all is a great story and I love the concept. But the day isn't much about Jesus to me as about family, peace, and loving one another.
And anyways.. isn't that what Jesus is really about? Family, Peace and Love?
People helping one another, sharing what they have and all that is good?
So that's kinda how I see xmas.
jmurrayhead
Well-known member
The "real value/message" behind Christmas does not matter much to me. What matters to me is what I make of it along with family and friends. Times change. People change.
Peggy
in memoriam 2016
Freshfroot, I don't think the OP was trying to make this a religious topic (although if he was, it's his perogative).
Moreover, his point (and mine) is that the holiday has become so commercialized (money, money, money), that the traditions, old-fashioned values, and yes religious aspect, if the holiday has been left by the side of the road in lieu of the stores making their yearly quotas, and/or seeing who can outbuy and outgift their friends/brother/sister.
It's sad, really.
Moreover, his point (and mine) is that the holiday has become so commercialized (money, money, money), that the traditions, old-fashioned values, and yes religious aspect, if the holiday has been left by the side of the road in lieu of the stores making their yearly quotas, and/or seeing who can outbuy and outgift their friends/brother/sister.
It's sad, really.
FreshFroot
Well-known member
I agree with you there. Though luckly for my family it isn't much about gifts anymore. Well unless it's about little kids or cousins. But that's mostly for fun.
This time of year it's just to see family and try to have a good time for once in a year.
I feel bad for spoiled kids though, some grow up only asking for gifts and forget that it's about other things too. Family, giving and sharing with others instead of wanting more and more.
I agree about the money part and commercializing. But I guess the world changes.. I mean look at the last 20 or so years. Lots has changed in the world even with holidays and their meanings.
Peggy
in memoriam 2016
Yep I agree. Fortunately, I've been able to instill in my son the importance of giving to those who have so much less than we do.
He's all about giving, whether it's a gift, a word of encouragement, a hug, or just a smile. I so hope that he retains the same spirit as he grows up.
He's all about giving, whether it's a gift, a word of encouragement, a hug, or just a smile. I so hope that he retains the same spirit as he grows up.
Mattie Num Nums
Active member
Holidays don't exist anymore plain and simple. Humans are so desperate for material goods these days that industries have learned to exploit our holidays.
Jethro
Well-known member
Dude posting a Christian site as a citing for a Christian belief is beyond propaganda and falls into the "fringes of American Evangelicalism" in terms of the share lunacy of notion. Please come back when you have a non-Christian site that supports your arguement, you could perhaps also look up Easter in terms of Pagan festivals, and the invention of the Devil as a control device derived from previous religions.
On a related, yet completely different topic, a Roman historian actually mentions Jesus in one paragraph, as a leader of a militant Jewish sect, does anyone remember the historian's name?