Peggy
in memoriam 2016
good GAWD that's a long list of Dept of's. Slash some of those suckers! What we've been saying all along - our government is TOO LARGE. It's ridiculous.
The Demise of the United States is Inevitable
- Thread starter Fred Sherman
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good GAWD that's a long list of Dept of's. Slash some of those suckers! What we've been saying all along - our government is TOO LARGE. It's ridiculous.
jasetaro
Well-known member
What we’ve seeing playing out in Washington over the debt limit debate is in many ways akin to an addict facing an intervention. Washington’s policy makers, both Democrats and Republicans, are hopelessly addicted to spending and they don’t want to admit it or change their behavior.
As a result they’ve begun lashing out ordinary Americans who have temerity to demand Washington change its ways and cut spending – drastically. Politicians and pundits alike have dismissed these people as “extremists” and referred to them derisively as “Tea baggers” or “Hobbits”. These so called extremists, aren’t really all that extreme most of them have never been politically active, much less protested anything before in their lives. Most of them are well informed, well intentioned people who believe in traditional American values... and yes, a few are cranks and crackpots who give the rest a bad name.
Regardless they’ve all come together for common reason, they’re deeply concerned that this country is headed in the wrong direction and want to see to it put back on the right track. In the words of Ronald Reagan "The federal government has taken too much tax money from the people, too much authority from the states, and too much liberty with the Constitution."
Anyway, that’s my rant for this morning.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Overall taxes to Americans are down from 29% to 24% (as seen in the Taxes Collected/ GDP).
The .gov has 660 billion less taxes from 2000 to 2011.
Americans are *NOT* taxed too much.
They are taxed unfairly.
Somebody ain't paying their share.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
Do you think there is any correlation between the drop in taxes and the increase in unemployment? Less income, lower income taxes?
How about the 46% of households that pay nothing at all?
jasetaro
Well-known member
It's not quite as simple as someone isn't paying there share. Honestly, we're just going to have agree to disagree on that point.
Anyway, lets take look at some data... In 1999 the bottom 50% of wage earners (those with an Adjusted Gross Income of less than $26,415 a year) payed 4.00% of the total federal income tax bill, while the top 1% of wage earners (those with an Adjusted Gross Income of $293,415 and up a year) payed 36.18% of the total federal income tax bill. By contrast in 2008 the bottom 50% of wage earners (those with an Adjusted Gross Income of less than $33,048a year) payed 2.7% of the total federal income tax bill, while the top 1% of wage earners (those with an Adjusted Gross Income of $$380,354 and up a year) payed 38.02% of the total federal income tax bill. So what we've done is shifted more of the tax burned to higher wage earners who tend to have more variability in their incomes than low wage earners (largely because much of their income is derived from non-salaried compensation such as stock options and bonuses that are tied to corporate earnings).
Second President Obama's stimulus package included (temporary?) payroll tax reductions that have reduced tax revenues to the government. And finally and Fred pointed we can't ignore the effects of a depressed economy on GDP and employment... There are millions fewer Americans earning taxable incomes today than there were just a few years ago.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
jasetaro, this is exactly why the traditional partisan politics will not work to solve this crisis. If I were in charge, he's what I would do:
Amendment 28 - Governmental Financial Reform
1. Revenue
a. The sixteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
b. Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is repealed.
c. The US Internal Revenue Service is disbanded
d. The United States government will collect revenue through a combination of two flat taxes.
i. This amendment enacts a federal sales tax of 12.7%
ii. This amendment enacts a Hall–Rabushka consumed-income tax of 14%.
iii. The specific provision of these flat taxes shall be outlined in the US Simplified Revenue Code of 2011.
e. No bill to increase the tax rates shall become law unless approved by a three-fifths majority of the whole number of each House by a rollcall vote.
2. Spending
a. Total outlays for any fiscal year shall not exceed total receipts for that fiscal year, unless three-fifths of the whole number of each House of Congress shall provide by law for a specific excess of outlays over receipts by a roll call vote.
b. Such deficits shall be offset by named spending cuts equal to that excess plus interest over a five year period.
c. The limit on the debt of the United States held by the public shall not be increased, unless three-fifths of the whole number of each House shall provide by law for such an increase by a roll call vote or by a two-thirds majority roll call vote for any fiscal year in which a declaration of war is in effect.
d. Congress may waive the provisions of this amendment for any fiscal year in which a declaration of war is in effect.
e. The provisions of this article may not be waived for any military conflict authorized under the War Powers Act, or as part of a multi-national effort where there has been no declaration of war except under the provisions of 2a and 2b.
f. The Congress shall enforce and implement this article by appropriate legislation, which may rely on estimates of outlays and receipts.
h. Total receipts shall include all receipts of the United States Government except those derived from borrowing. Total outlays shall include all outlays of the United States Government including for those for repayment of debt principal and interest.
3. Line Item Veto
For the sake of brevity, insert the text of the Legislative Line Item Veto Act of 2006 (S 2381), appropriately updated to reflect the move two a dual layer flat income tax and national sales tax.
4. Debt Servicing and Payment
a. The United States Government will become debt free within 30 years of this amendment taking effect
b. The US debt will be amortized over a 30 year period.
c. The annual proposed budget must include repayment of debt interest and principle.
5. Social Security
a. Social Security revenues will not be included in the general fund. Social Security revenues will be attached to the Social Security Trust Fund
b. Social Security payments will be made from the general fund as part of the annual budget until such time as the Social Security Trust Fund has grown to through interest and revenue to the point where it will be self-sustaining.
c. Having achieved a point of self-sustainment, Social Security revenues and payments will be administered separate from the general fund and annual budget.
d. To propose or enact legislation that transfers funds from the Social Security Trust Fund to the General fund or to use the Social Security Fund as a payment source for anything other than Social Security expenses shall be considered a High Crime.
6. Transparency
a. No roll call vote as required under this amendment may occur prior to 72 hours after making the text of the proposed law available to the public.
b. Cloture votes require a three-fifths majority.
c. All debates of legislation required under this amendment must be public.
7. Failure to Comply
a. Should any provision of this amendment fail to be enacted, the President, Vice President and all members of both houses of Congress seated during that fiscal year will be barred from any federal elected office or any governmental position requiring ratification by the Senate for life.
--------------------
On the consumed-income tax, I would allow for a standard deduction, dependent deductions and a negative balance:
For example, let the flat rate be 20%, and let the deductions be $20,000 per adult and $7,000 per dependent. Under such a system, a family of four making $54,000 a year would owe no tax. A family of four making $74,000 a year would owe tax amounting to 0.20 × (74,000 − 54,000) = $4,000, as under a flat tax with deductions. But families of four earning less than $54,000 per year would owe a "negative" amount of tax (that is, it would receive money from the government). For example, if it earned $34,000 a year, it would receive a check for $4,000.
At the same time, if that $4000 is spend on non-essential items, then it is subject to the national sales tax.
The Hall–Rabushka flat tax is a flat tax on consumption designed by American economists Robert Hall and Alvin Rabushka at the Hoover Institution, by taxing income and then excluding investment. This encourages personal savings and economic growth and has been extremely successful in Eastern Europe.
This would force all Presidents to consider their use of military force wisely. Only a declaration of war would permit a waiver. It would also prevent the "Bush's War" rhetoric, because any War Powers action on UN action would require Congress to actively fund the war by defunding other expenses. Before you send US troops in to harm's way, everyone has to get their hands dirty and take partial ownership in it. Seems like we owe them that much.
And no more last minute deals like the latest crap sandwich that had everyone claiming to be a gourmet chef.
Amendment 28 - Governmental Financial Reform
1. Revenue
a. The sixteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
b. Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is repealed.
c. The US Internal Revenue Service is disbanded
d. The United States government will collect revenue through a combination of two flat taxes.
i. This amendment enacts a federal sales tax of 12.7%
ii. This amendment enacts a Hall–Rabushka consumed-income tax of 14%.
iii. The specific provision of these flat taxes shall be outlined in the US Simplified Revenue Code of 2011.
e. No bill to increase the tax rates shall become law unless approved by a three-fifths majority of the whole number of each House by a rollcall vote.
2. Spending
a. Total outlays for any fiscal year shall not exceed total receipts for that fiscal year, unless three-fifths of the whole number of each House of Congress shall provide by law for a specific excess of outlays over receipts by a roll call vote.
b. Such deficits shall be offset by named spending cuts equal to that excess plus interest over a five year period.
c. The limit on the debt of the United States held by the public shall not be increased, unless three-fifths of the whole number of each House shall provide by law for such an increase by a roll call vote or by a two-thirds majority roll call vote for any fiscal year in which a declaration of war is in effect.
d. Congress may waive the provisions of this amendment for any fiscal year in which a declaration of war is in effect.
e. The provisions of this article may not be waived for any military conflict authorized under the War Powers Act, or as part of a multi-national effort where there has been no declaration of war except under the provisions of 2a and 2b.
f. The Congress shall enforce and implement this article by appropriate legislation, which may rely on estimates of outlays and receipts.
h. Total receipts shall include all receipts of the United States Government except those derived from borrowing. Total outlays shall include all outlays of the United States Government including for those for repayment of debt principal and interest.
3. Line Item Veto
For the sake of brevity, insert the text of the Legislative Line Item Veto Act of 2006 (S 2381), appropriately updated to reflect the move two a dual layer flat income tax and national sales tax.
4. Debt Servicing and Payment
a. The United States Government will become debt free within 30 years of this amendment taking effect
b. The US debt will be amortized over a 30 year period.
c. The annual proposed budget must include repayment of debt interest and principle.
5. Social Security
a. Social Security revenues will not be included in the general fund. Social Security revenues will be attached to the Social Security Trust Fund
b. Social Security payments will be made from the general fund as part of the annual budget until such time as the Social Security Trust Fund has grown to through interest and revenue to the point where it will be self-sustaining.
c. Having achieved a point of self-sustainment, Social Security revenues and payments will be administered separate from the general fund and annual budget.
d. To propose or enact legislation that transfers funds from the Social Security Trust Fund to the General fund or to use the Social Security Fund as a payment source for anything other than Social Security expenses shall be considered a High Crime.
6. Transparency
a. No roll call vote as required under this amendment may occur prior to 72 hours after making the text of the proposed law available to the public.
b. Cloture votes require a three-fifths majority.
c. All debates of legislation required under this amendment must be public.
7. Failure to Comply
a. Should any provision of this amendment fail to be enacted, the President, Vice President and all members of both houses of Congress seated during that fiscal year will be barred from any federal elected office or any governmental position requiring ratification by the Senate for life.
--------------------
On the consumed-income tax, I would allow for a standard deduction, dependent deductions and a negative balance:
For example, let the flat rate be 20%, and let the deductions be $20,000 per adult and $7,000 per dependent. Under such a system, a family of four making $54,000 a year would owe no tax. A family of four making $74,000 a year would owe tax amounting to 0.20 × (74,000 − 54,000) = $4,000, as under a flat tax with deductions. But families of four earning less than $54,000 per year would owe a "negative" amount of tax (that is, it would receive money from the government). For example, if it earned $34,000 a year, it would receive a check for $4,000.
At the same time, if that $4000 is spend on non-essential items, then it is subject to the national sales tax.
The Hall–Rabushka flat tax is a flat tax on consumption designed by American economists Robert Hall and Alvin Rabushka at the Hoover Institution, by taxing income and then excluding investment. This encourages personal savings and economic growth and has been extremely successful in Eastern Europe.
This would force all Presidents to consider their use of military force wisely. Only a declaration of war would permit a waiver. It would also prevent the "Bush's War" rhetoric, because any War Powers action on UN action would require Congress to actively fund the war by defunding other expenses. Before you send US troops in to harm's way, everyone has to get their hands dirty and take partial ownership in it. Seems like we owe them that much.
And no more last minute deals like the latest crap sandwich that had everyone claiming to be a gourmet chef.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Yeah, good luck with all that FredThe only way any of that would ever become a reality is when we citizens take up arms and throw off this repressive system we have now...and believe me, we will only achieve that by force of arms.
Like they did in Egypt ?
Last year, I had a nightmare that unemployment in the US hit 15% and there was a "Revolution of the People". People felt it was the only way around the corruptness in Washington and the media in general. Maybe it was a dream ?
I think almost every country would benefit from Political Reform .... but it seems impossible that elected officials will reduce their own power.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Next on the worry list after that is: Spain.The US should be worrying about Italy at the moment and the knock on effect that will happen if they can't sort out their debt
I thought Spain was worse, but I guess it's how far into the future you are looking
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
I just keep reminding myself that no state is in a better position to successfully secede than Texas. The only mistake we made last time was joining with the Confederates instead of remaining separate and returning to the Republic of Texas. Maybe next time, we'll just agree to shake hands, wish each other well and go our separate ways.Yeah, good luck with all that Fred
Yes, I know its an unrealistic flight of fancy, but it makes me feel better for a few moments, like Advil for the soul.
erich37
Well-known member
Thats doesn't quite fit the facts now, does it?
Out of every $1 the US government spends, $0.66 goes to pay individuals. 2/3 of the US expenses is an entitlement check of one type or another. Only 20% of the budget goes towards military spending.
Its pretty clear it isn't the military that is bankrupting us and its not capitalism. Its socialism.
why spending so much money for oil (Defense budget
)...... ?
Next on the worry list after that is: Spain.
I thought Spain was worse, but I guess it's how far into the future you are looking
If italy OR spain fold, the other will follow very shortly after.
MGSteve
Well-known member
If Italy or Spain fold, it'll be quickly followed by Portugal, Ireland and the Euro, which would definitely cause the global economy to catch a cold and definitely throw a spanner in the works of any US plan.
The problem with all these government plans is that they seem focused on clearing the deficit, but not on clearing the debt! When the US is paying $164 BILLION a year on interest on their debt and the UK is pretty high too (don't have a figure to hand, but its more than Heath & Education spending if I recall), it clearly would take decades of surplus to clear the debt off and as all know, politicians never look past the end of their term - they are incapable of doing any long term views, where long term is 10-20 years.
The problem is that we've simply been living in debt for far too long and simply happy for the debt to increase year on year.
MGSteve
Well-known member
What isn't helping the EuroZone countries though, is the Euro. Its becoming apparent that a single currency is just too inflexible when countries get into these situations. What Greece would have been able to do with the Drachma is to devalue it in the current circumstances, but of course it can't do that.
The problem is both countries have massive dealings with the banks in France, so the French banks are what will take the hit if either defaults. The knock on effect is likely to effect the other, and then theres the recoil back to the UK which we have large ammounts of French debt.
The domino effect of either Italy or Spain defaulting will be worse than the Greek situation. I was speaking to a Friend who works high up in Barclays at poker yesterday, he says Greece has already defaulted, Brussels is just working out how to do it most effectively to lessen the impact before making it official.
jasetaro
Well-known member
Honestly, we should be worried about our own economy at the moment. It sort of got lost in all the fervor surrounding the debt limit increase debate, but the economic news in this country has been bad lately. GDP in the first quarter was just .4%, the second quarter came in at 1.3% and the current quarter is forecast at 1.7% -- that's down sharply from a year ago. Manufacturing is down, housing and construction are stagnant, and it appears that service industries are starting shed jobs.The US should be worrying about Italy at the moment and the knock on effect that will happen if they can't sort out their debt
Second, you may have missed this but the Dow Industrial Avg. has lost about 8% of it's value over the lats 10 days (and this mornings opening should make you queasy!).
Third, thanks to the debt limit increase and a new round of borrowing our national debt now exceeds 100% of GDP.
Bottom line, whenever an economy this large drops below 2% GDP growth it's in danger of stalling and falling into recession... I'm not saying we're headed for a double dip, but the warning signs are there.
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