The 4th Amendment to The Constitution goes bye-bye

[TheLaw]

I'm not going to tell anyone that marijuana is any worse than alcohol. But whether any of us like it or not, the law at present is that its possession or use is illegal and we all are aware of the consequences. My comment about smelling the pot from a half a mile away was obviously an exaggeration meant to emphasize the fact that some people flout the law to a large extent and are somehow surprised when enforcement occurs. Perhaps they believe that their actions constitute some type of justifiable civil disobedience. So when does one person's desire for what they believe is an innocuous liberty infringe upon another person's right? It's not an easy question to answer. But any reasonable person should be able to appreciate the meaning of "driving under the influence" and that it's not comparable to taking aspirin. This is probably not the best forum for that kind of discussion either.

In my opinion, the whole "war on drugs" thing in the US is not working. So many people in prison for non violent drug related crimes when they should be in a rehab or hospital getting treated off their addictions.

This is unfortunately a very difficult question to answer. What does this mean? That everyone should be able to buy cocaine? If people become addicted, which is a high likelihood, is the rest of society to pay the high cost of housing, feeding and treating addicts who are broke as a result of their addiction? What is the cause and effect? Did this person develop a dependency on painkillers as the result of an injury or did they decide one day to experiment with crack and went down the dark path on their own volition?

What I've found over the years is that criticism of the system is easy. Solutions are brutally difficult.

 

[EQnoble]

I'm not going to tell anyone that marijuana is any worse than alcohol. But whether any of us like it or not, the law at present is that its possession or use is illegal and we all are aware of the consequences. My comment about smelling the pot from a half a mile away was obviously an exaggeration meant to emphasize the fact that some people flout the law to a large extent and are somehow surprised when enforcement occurs. Perhaps they believe that their actions constitute some type of justifiable civil disobedience. So when does one person's desire for what they believe is an innocuous liberty infringe upon another person's right? It's not an easy question to answer. But any reasonable person should be able to appreciate the meaning of "driving under the influence" and that it's not comparable to taking aspirin. This is probably not the best forum for that kind of discussion either.

This is unfortunately a very difficult question to answer. What does this mean? That everyone should be able to buy cocaine? If people become addicted, which is a high likelihood, is the rest of society to pay the high cost of housing, feeding and treating addicts who are broke as a result of their addiction? What is the cause and effect? Did this person develop a dependency on painkillers as the result of an injury or did they decide one day to experiment with crack and went down the dark path on their own volition?

What I've found over the years is that criticism of the system is easy. Solutions are brutally difficult.

What I was imposing was that I smoke medicinally and in my state it is going through the legal process right now and is on the way to becoming legal and since I can cite my local newspaper which happens to be the oldest still printing edition in the country so I would say if we are talking law...law is law regardless of subject matter. You also radically take my examples out of proportion. One I never compared alcohol to aspirin, I compared cannabis to it because I have seen for myself that it works and aspirin gives me reactions that are worse than my everyday pain and I can plainly see the inconsistencies in the laws surrounding it.

How does a plant that is very similar become illegal when the other one is allowed to be used to be processed and have whole establishments based on their product for entertainment. Your cocaine example is faulty as well because who pays for their gratis stay at the prison. We are already paying for it and the only ones making money are the treatment facilities who give these people another drug that they consider safe. And I know people who have injured themselves and staged car accidents to get a prescription....you...can't...help ...them.

To assume I say I am smoking weed and label it civil disobedience is again categorizing things a bit obtusely. I simply do not acknowledge this unjust law as it does not hurt anyone and in fact is the reason I can even look at my screen long enough to respond. It has nothing to do with civil anything. It has to do with survival and being free to enjoy my life so long as it does not have adverse effects on my environment and the people in it. It has nothing to do with proving anything to anyone which is what civil disobedience is about. I am about being a good person and living life. If that is criminal to you go right ahead and report me...they will just take my money send me to alcoholics anonymous (yes that is where they send you for smoking weed here.) and go to the alcohol abuse class at one of the fine establishments the courts has recommended...because they are really trying to help me. The people instructing those classes told me out of their own mouths that being here for weed is a joke that pays them well, just deal with it and go back to how you need to live.

Hemp got brought up , I responded, someone brought up war on drugs immediately following, I displayed my position because reading those in order could infer something that shouldn't be. People who smoke weed do not need treatment. That was my point. A very useful plant is illegal because of an early monopoly and it is pretty obvious. I am vindicating myself because the post following mine could be misleading and that is it. If you try to sum up an action that I do as something other than what it is I will be forced to inform you because as a good person I have no reason to let you believe something I know to be false because I see problems with these things from where the problems are not from a courtroom. I live around these people...they went to school with me...they we're my friend's parents. I have lost friends and some have come back...some can never. I actually have a position here not based on some courtroom rhetoric but on experience from many sides and I will say nothing else other than I am offended that you think people are smoking to prove anything or that you need to classify it as anything because I don't. I was born in a court of life...not a court of law...men made laws, they are fallible....period

You want to stop drugs being here...go after the accountants who launder the money. End of story.

 

[Sadik B]

What I've found over the years is that criticism of the system is easy. Solutions are brutally difficult.

I wholeheartedly agree. That is why I only said that "it is not working". What is the alternative? Seems that we have to explore the possibility of options between legalize and regulate and make illegal and arrest.

 

[EQnoble]

If you prosecute people who launder money here, cartels cannot distribute to wholesalers who can't distribute to ..so on and so on. It's as simple as that...as long as actual street drugs are available there will be people sold into doing them, or the people get introduced by DARE making all drugs taboo from a young age which makes some people want to do them. All you have to do is examine a drug addict for a day and you will see that you don't want to be one if you are of all your faculties. There is no formula that can work on a dynamic existence such as people ,90% of the time when the system get's involved with peoples personal lives they do more bad than good...this is what I have seen and have and had personal relationships with people who have and are related to users. I will say again...you need to go after the clean and sober guy who distributes the weight and gets filthy rich, as well as the guy who makes his and his associates money clean. You stop problems at their source and things will trickle downward. Too much money is wasted on a hopeless effort of helping people with access to that which they are enslaved to. Attack the people enslaving them. It really is that simple.

 

[Sadik B]

EQnoble, are u a Ron Paul supporter?

 

[EQnoble]

Well I would have to ask why you would ask...no offense is taken I just want to know to what end you pursue with the question for conversations sake.

 

[Sadik B]

Well I would have to ask why you would ask...no offense is taken I just want to know to what end you pursue with the question for conversations sake.

Well I saw a video of his a few days back, which I had posted here also. Your point about freedom for people seems to be what he was talking about, so I wondered. Just Out of curiosity I asked.

 

[TheLaw]

You also radically take my examples out of proportion. One I never compared alcohol to aspirin, I compared cannabis to it because I have seen for myself that it works and aspirin gives me reactions that are worse than my everyday pain and I can plainly see the inconsistencies in the laws surrounding it.

So you're saying that since Cannabis can also have the same or similar effect as aspirin, they are the functional equivalent with no other side effects. But alcohol - which is also made from a plant and can also be a medical antiseptic - that's not comparable. I won't comment on this - I'll post a link to what a leading pro marijuana reform group has to say about this: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5448

In fact, NORML's own "Principles of Responsible Cannabis Use" invoke a "no driving" clause, stating: "Although cannabis is said by most experts to be safer than alcohol and many prescription drugs with motorists, responsible cannabis consumers never operate motor vehicles in an impaired condition."

You want to stop drugs being here...go after the accountants who launder the money. End of story.

They are going after both. I agree that harsh rules should be enforced against suppliers and distributors. But being a lesser evil doesn't change the fact that there is a violation and absolve someone of a charge.

Anyways, I'll let you guys discuss this further. I was just explaining what the Supreme Court's position is.

 

[EQnoble]

Alcohol is by classification a poison, the world just ignores that because the world is full of drunk people. I am not saying they are comparable at all nor do I think the right one is illegal. No I am saying aspirin makes me sick and makes my blood itch and my body rejects it and I am better off living until my death in horrible pain or wait like you said before why don't I go get addicted to those painkillers you were talking about, that would be a solution right ..no side effects there. Either way blood itching is the same reason I do not drink the homemade wine my family has been making for hundreds of years even though I continue the tradition. Wait since you bring up antiseptic I will point out another obvious piece of evidence, you yourself state alcohol is an antiseptic which only works as one because it is KILLING micro organisms. Yeah let's drink some of that. By the way care to manipulate anything else.

I don't care what YOU think you KNOW about medical info and I don't represent norml but I support their cause and it is unfortunate that people have to lobby like all the lobbyist criminals to get legislation to use a plant which literally must only be picked to smoke...you yourself state that alcohol is made from plants but it has to be processed I am telling you with all my insistence you have no clue what you are talking about ..you can quote sources all day..I HAVE EXPERIMENTED AND DOCUMENTED MY RESULTS. I am not impaired as you imply which for someone who won't comment you seem to make clear your position that I am impaired. I am however impaired when I am not smoking or because pain can cause me to HAVE to close my eyes. What does your man written book say about that? By the way do you know why I was pulled over...I was driving unusually carefully and the officer thought I was a criminal trying be careful ..which is why he let me go ,I was not driving unsafely and I was not committing a crime. He made the call. Your talking about reform and which is basically telling the rest of the world they were lied to about the facts since before reefer madness and I am talking about working proof in the form of personal example and the quality of my life improving. By the way the short term of that officer not arresting me. I was free to drive home and catch an arson act in progress and was able to warn a family so their house didn't burn down with them in it...because that is something drunk people do right? By the way when I am smoking my medicine doing the speed limit on the highway, you sober people are so aware of whats going on that it must be ok to text msg, talk on the phone, do your makeup and go 30 mph over the speed limit at the same time. All of those things are unarguably more dangerous than smoking for someone who using MaryJ medically.

MaryJ on the other hand actually takes away the pain for me and I am more comfortable this way and I have NO adverse side effects (at least none worse than what I wake up dealing with everyday)...because nature is better than some dude in a lab coat is at determining a substance value. Every strain has it's own qualities and strength.
And while we are quoting sources Ill post this...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor, soooo...where's my bodies alcohol and aspirin receptors since you want to act like you are going to get technical.

Go to the rainforests you will find a species of spores that attack the wildlife there...funny thing is each animal that it effects is actually only attacked by a special target species of that spore. That is just a single example of why nature is smarter than you or I or the whole of the Supreme Court.

Stop judging me...directly or indirectly, that is the position of a REAL person who is a citizen of the United States of America. If you do not smoke you have no position judging me based on books filled with political based lies. I am not in court here. This is the last time I will tell you that and I hope you understand my implied meaning now.

Enough.

 

[EQnoble]

Well I saw a video of his a few days back, which I had posted here also. Your point about freedom for people seems to be what he was talking about, so I wondered. Just Out of curiosity I asked.

To answer in simplest terms politically I support actions not people, I don't care about campaign , I care about voting record...he is however a person who happens to share a lot of ideals with myself. I don't believe anyone should have a say over anyone else having an abortion procedure but that is about the only view Mr. Ron Paul and Myself differ on greatly. But yes I believe if he were to become president our country might just become that much better.

 

[---MAD---]

Very interesting debates going on here I must say.

 

[BlackJacket]

This is a subject that is always on my mind. We are witnessing the de-construction of our constitution because these generations don't know and don't care. The U.S. has turned into a "me" country, forgetting how we got here and why we have these freedoms. While these recent laws may get over turned, how long will they stay down? When our generations that actually care get older, those freedoms we have fought so hard for a likely to be revoked.

"Other countries are doing it, it's about time the U.S. did as well..." Our founding fathers never trusted Government, this is why we have the Bill of rights, The Constitution, etc... so we can regulate our Government. But, it seems as though we as a nation have forgotten that and have let our Government overrule us. Those of us who speak like this are labeled as crazy and conspiracy theorists. I am far from a conspiracy theorist D), however I am a realist and can see what is happening right in front of our faces.

Who is going to speak up for us, the people? When are we going to get what we want for once, and not what these rich politicians want.

/endrant

 

[BlackJacket]

On the subject of drug use,

I never understood this debate over medical cannabis. Whats the point of smoking it? Just like any other medicine that is discovered from a plant, they process it and turn it into a pill. While I am no doctor, I can say that there may be some medical benefit to marijuana. However, smoking it is plain stupid and would do more harm than good.

In my opinion though, if the drugs side effects outweigh the benefits, then whats the point? I feel the same towards alcohol and approved drugs (you see the commercials all the time. The side effects are 10x worse than the benefit).

So to summarize -

Process marijuana and turn it into a pill = Yes
Smoking marijuana = F*$&ing stupid.
Drinking Alcohol = dumb as well
Smoking cigarettes = Do I need to tell you my thoughts?

(BTW, we will always, as humans, do whatever we want. There is no way you could stop that. So make it a pill and someone will smoke it lol)

 

[EQnoble]

On the subject of drug use,

I never understood this debate over medical cannabis. Whats the point of smoking it? Just like any other medicine that is discovered from a plant, they process it and turn it into a pill. While I am no doctor, I can say that there may be some medical benefit to marijuana. However, smoking it is plain stupid and would do more harm than good.

In my opinion though, if the drugs side effects outweigh the benefits, then whats the point? I feel the same towards alcohol and approved drugs (you see the commercials all the time. The side effects are 10x worse than the benefit).

So to summarize -

Process marijuana and turn it into a pill = Yes
Smoking marijuana = F*$&ing stupid.
Drinking Alcohol = dumb as well
Smoking cigarettes = Do I need to tell you my thoughts?

(BTW, we will always, as humans, do whatever we want. There is no way you could stop that. So make it a pill and someone will smoke it lol)

You have a biased opinion...you have no clue what you are talking about and you just don't get it. Some people can count down to when they are expiring and maybe just maybe they want to have a level of comfort in their lives that would be permitted in nature.

You started by saying you never understood it...and after admitting that you go on to suggest that because in the circumstances of your life, the use of cannabis renders more harm than good that it would be the same for everyone else. You also having no knowledge of Cannabis Sativa or Indica respectively to ascertain that a pill form would be good. Yet you continue to judge a topic you know nothing on that was obviously dead-ed earlier in this thread. So thanks for that...

<script type="text/sarcasm">

So to Summarize -

Process a plant = because nature wasn't good enough before us perhaps?
Cannabis dried and smoked...off the plant = no added chemicals, If the petty legalities weren't an issue people would make cannabutter because they could legally grow a REAL harvest and they wouldn't be smoking it except for recreation just like a beer or a nice glass of wine. That is not the case and you have not observed anything without bias.
Drinking Alcohol = personal freedom does it not?
Smoking ciggs = please don't tell me anymore thought's thanks. I have the surgeon general for that.

</script >

 

[Digital Doctor]

I see alcohol killing people everyday.
I see smoking killing people everyday.
I rarely see people having problems with weed / THC /hash (except legal).

Conclusion: Vaporize the hash ! Safe and Effective

 

[BlackJacket]

You have a biased opinion...you have no clue what you are talking about and you just don't get it. Some people can count down to when they are expiring and maybe just maybe they want to have a level of comfort in their lives that would be permitted in nature.

You started by saying you never understood it...

You're putting smoke in your lungs. When is that ever OK?

 

[Forsaken]

You're putting smoke in your lungs. When is that ever OK?

His choice, not yours.

You don't have to live with what he decides, so why not leave it at that?

 

[Fred Sherman]

EQnoble, as much as I respect you, I still have to take issue with some of your statements. I pass no moral judgement on how you manage your pain. During my time as a hospital chaplain, I saw people in unimaginable pain from chronic and terminal conditions. When you seen that kind of pain and the toll it takes on a person's physical and emotional wellbeing, you wouldn't want to deny them anything that offers them relief without causing additional harm.

At the same time, you really can't say your marijuana usage is medicinal. For that to be accurate, you have to meet four criteria:

1. It has to be legal in your state
2. You much be under a doctor's care
3. You must have a valid prescription
4. You must obtain it from a legal source

You've already said you aren't meeting all four requirements. It may seem like splitting hairs, but your usage is self-administered palliative care without being medicinal, because it isn't legal.

Legal and moral are two different things. You can't base a legal argument in what is moral, or visa versa. This is an example of what is right morally being illegal and what is legal is morally wrong.

 

[Forsaken]

EQnoble, as much as I respect you, I still have to take issue with some of your statements. I pass no moral judgement on how you manage your pain. During my time as a hospital chaplain, I saw people in unimaginable pain from chronic and terminal conditions. When you seen that kind of pain and the toll it takes on a person's physical and emotional wellbeing, you wouldn't want to deny them anything that offers them relief without causing additional harm.

At the same time, you really can't say your marijuana usage is medicinal. For that to be accurate, you have to meet four criteria:

1. It has to be legal in your state
2. You much be under a doctor's care
3. You must have a valid prescription
4. You must obtain it from a legal source

You've already said you aren't meeting all four requirements. It may seem like splitting hairs, but your usage is self-administered palliative care without being medicinal, because it isn't legal.

Legal and moral are two different things. You can't base a legal argument in what is moral, or visa versa. This is an example of what is right morally being illegal and what is legal is morally wrong.

How can he meet the last three if he can't meet the first criteria?

 

[Fred Sherman]

He can't. But as I also said, just because its illegal, doesn't make it wrong or immoral. I've seen enough suffering for me to believe that his state is wrong, even though it has the law on it's side.

This may be a fine point, but I believe it is what distinquishes a legal system from a system of justice. A legal system says that its illegal, you did it, so you are punished. Pay the fine.

What separates a legal system from a true justice system is mercy and compassion. In that case, one looks at not just the law, but what is good and moral as well. In such a case, we say while it is illegal, we understand that this is a unique case with extenuating circumstances. Charges dropped.

Don't expect me to defend the government. I believe that which governs best, governs least.