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Not What You Want to Hear: That Legal Case!

Discussion in 'XenForo Pre-Sales Questions' started by Gene Steinberg, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Well-Known Member

    I am very sympathetic to your cause, and I hope you'll prevail in the lawsuit from the publishers of vBulletin.

    On the other hand, if the courts surprise you — and they can be unpredictable — how do you indemnify people who have invested in your product? Are they potentially liable in the event that the verdict goes against you, because they'd be using software that supposedly infringes on another product? Not to mention one that may never be updated.

    Mind you, I'm not suggesting for a moment that you will lose. But I do want to start moving our forums to Xenforo starting with your 1.1 version, and I just need to feel better about the process.

    Where's this stand (and forgive me if there's another tread on the subject that I've missed)?
  2. Peggy

    Peggy Well-Known Member

    This question has been asked and answered at least a half-dozen times. But to answer your questions, I don't see where XenForo LTD would be liable to anyone if they lose the case (which isn't happening, btw). People know the situation, if they read these forums, and they purchase at their own risk.

    (This is on an official answer, just my opinion)

    There is a thread about the California case.
  3. steven s

    steven s Well-Known Member

  4. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Well-Known Member

    I dont speak for XenForo and at first the court case did worry me. But after careful consideration I decided that I will still buy this software. I'll but it regardless of the outcome, my reasons are...

    1) Although migrating a website from VB/IPB to XF and then back to VB/IPB would be a pain. I think it's a risk worth taking. And although $140 is a lot of money, sometimes you have to take a risk on something you believe in.

    2) Even if XF do lose the case, it will be lost on certain points or conditions. The court may decide that coding styles XYZ or rule set ABC are copyrighted to VB. If they do then XF may have to either pay VB to license those aspects of the XF software or Kier/Mike will be required to replace/rewrite the infringing pieces of code in a different way so as to avoid the infringement.

    3) Finally the fact is that XenForo is quite simply outstanding. It's better than any of the other options out there. Even if Kier and Mike lose the case, the software will be picked up by someone. Even if it's sold onto Internet Brands. I'm sure that no-one will be stupid enough to let something like this die out.

    However let's all hope that XF stays with Kier and Mike and that IB get their asses kicked.
    Saeed and Peggy like this.
  5. steven s

    steven s Well-Known Member

    Well I do think some good has come out of all this.
    vB is a better product now than when v4 first came out.
    Up until now I don't think they had any reason to care.
    Saeed likes this.
  6. MGSteve

    MGSteve Well-Known Member

    You were talking about IB though....

    I seriously cannot see the main point of the case, that being that XF is derived from VB ever being held up in court, there is simply no way that could ever be upheld - even if by some twist of fate it was, I'm sure an appeal would be lodged - it would only ever be upheld because the defence failed to convey the facts, which going by what has been filed so far, isn't likely, XF's US lawyers appear quite hot. (Some would say in more ways than one ;) )

    Its the finer details - i.e. if XF has features that IB claim where theirs, that's where the problems lie, but those are surmountable.

    It appears we shouldn't have too long to wait anyway, June is when it should be settled, one way or the other.
  7. kkm323

    kkm323 Well-Known Member

    I believe in xenforo, therefore I am

    true believer since day one
    I am not going back to vb never ever again :p
    Puntocom likes this.
  8. Peggy

    Peggy Well-Known Member

    Wanna bet?
    Saeed likes this.
  9. EQnoble

    EQnoble Well-Known Member

    I don't think IB has a real case...period. Even if they buy the case I WILL NOT surrender my copy of XF to them or anyone ever...MINE MINE MINE. Call me greedy but it is mine and I personally think that IB has no backbone to their accusations. They bought a software title and are trying to protect their investment with a dirty low down measure. I believe what they are doing should be unlawful and I will parade on those grounds until the cows come home. I can't tell you much as a person with little experience in the technical mechanics of forum software but...I can tell you that when I tried to customize vb it failed and when I managed to hack something into working, an update would break it. Not the case with XF at all.

    Forget the other things about the differences of the two software titles compared side by side...for me my abilities to succeed in doing things with this software was enough to tell me it was different than ANYTHING I have used before.

    What IB is doing in my opinion is causing some people to fear investing in this AWESOME piece of software and in some places that is a crime. Just the tactical date IB announced their intentions on is blatantly obvious to me as well as (forgive me mother) my mother who I happened to be discussing this with over Easter dinner..she is employed in a state mental health facility in a wing for unstable criminals so I am sure she knows protocol and process.

    I would make your choice based on what software you think benefits you, which is based on what the abilities and potentials of your available choices are.
    ManagerJosh, erich37 and Saeed like this.
  10. Fufu

    Fufu Well-Known Member

    I am confused now. The case is against xenForo or the developers or both?
  11. Forsaken

    Forsaken Well-Known Member

    Against XenForo, as well as against Kier.
  12. steven s

    steven s Well-Known Member

    Saeed and Fufu like this.
  13. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    A quick point on secondary infringement. (I am a little hesitant to go down this road at all because it is so very clear that XF did not infringe...but that is for another thread).

    Here is an analogy from the peer to peer music downloading cases. In those cases, persons downloaded music that they had no license to download (because they had not bought a copy from someone with the authority to grant a license for sale). Many of these people were sued for infringement, among other things.

    Now, imagine a situation where Artist A puts out an album with a song copied almost verbatim from a little known Artist B. Jimmy Jones is a big fan of Artist A's and goes to the store and buys this album and listens to it. Artist B then discovers the song, sues Artist A for copyright infringement and wins. Is Jimmy Jones also an infringer? Would he be able to be sued for having bought the album? The answer is No.

    This is a short hypothetical and I recognize that I did not cite to cases or statutes. I have in other threads discussed secondary copyright infringement, with citations, though. That said, this is my opinion of the situation. I think it is an absurd issue, though, because it is evident that XF does not infringe on any of IB's copyrights. Of course, the only way you may have peace of mind, if this really worries you, is to get legal advice from your own attorney. Like I said, this is my opinion. Though, asking a question like this in a forum pretty much guarantees that you are going to get only people's opinions.

    I would not lose a wink of sleep over liability due to this case.
    fos, Saeed, EQnoble and 1 other person like this.
  14. Peggy

    Peggy Well-Known Member

    Both XenForo and Kier & Mike.
  15. Forsaken

    Forsaken Well-Known Member

    Wasn't aware Mike was being sued? Thought Kier was the only one named by himself.
  16. Peggy

    Peggy Well-Known Member

    Sorry, in the California case, yes, it is Xen Foro, LTD, Kier Darby and DOES 1-10.

    For the UK case, if I'm not mistaken, all three (Kier, Mike, and Ashley) are named. Kier would have to confirm that.
  17. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Well-Known Member

    Well, best of luck anyway.

    I'm kind of tainted in my outlook after watching what my close relatives went through with their legal case.

    But my moderators love the possibilities of XenForo, and we're waiting for 1.1 before diving in.
  18. erich37

    erich37 Well-Known Member

    what are you going to do when VB will be bancrupt and closed in 2 years from now?
  19. Gene Steinberg

    Gene Steinberg Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately quality and success don't always align. Obviously, I'm not fully satisfied with what VB is offering, which is why I'm seeking alternatives.
  20. owtlawatv

    owtlawatv Member

    While some say that this lawsuit should not sway anyone from purchasing, I think that it sways me.
    I came here today with money in hand to purchase XenForo and now I'm not so confident.
    I will stick with phpbb3 for a tad bit longer, but I will be back to purchase a license when the dust settles...

    Saeed and Peggy like this.

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