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[Peggy]

A 9/11 can happen anywhere at anytime.

I've traveled a lot and it's VERY easy to do what they did maybe not with planes. But subways and what not. They could do that WITHOUT wikileaks infomation.

As for troops in afganistan.. that's too bad. No one asked them to go. In fact NO ONE worldwide supported the US to go. UK only did it for personal reasons, and now the UK is feeling the pressure for doing so.

If your scared about your troops pull them back in.

Why is it okay for your troops to go anywhere and attack anyone. And yet when information about your country is out. It's not okay for anyone to attack you back?

So typical of americans.. no offense. But that's how you all act. It's always fine when you guys are doing the bullying and getting your way.

But when you don't get your way or someone opposes you. You tell them they are traitors or working with terrorists or all this crap to make yourself feel and sound better.

Disgusting... and to see people like you support your government such as Bush.

No offense, but it doesn't feel so good being on the other side now does it?

That's twice you've said "No offense" yet you deliberately set out to offend. And you have. Funny that you should talk of others being bullies.....
If you find me disgusting, then stop posting with me.

Let me tell you something, the US was not the only country involved in Iraq, and neither was the UK. There were many countries involved. You might want to read up on it.

Have you seen me say anywhere here that the US, or any other country involved, was in the right? No you have not. Have I said that it is ok for us to send our troops anywhere? No, I did not. Have I said that our government should have done what they did, and are doing? NO, I have not. I have not said, nor would I ever say anything of the kind, because I do disagree with most of what has happened in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And trust me when I say that if I could bring our people home, you can bet your ass I would. All of these countries that we've helped for the past god-only-knows how many years need to stand on their own feet and do for themselves. We need to stop helping them with our troops, with our money, etc.

But I will stand by my statement still - I have no sympathy for, nor patience with, someone who would deliberately put our troops, your troops, any country's troops, in grave danger.

 

[Peggy]

Did you not read Brogan's post?

oh wait I guess you don't care what mods say.

Just like how people invade other countries. No care about what others say.

Let's just do it!

Huh? You're saying I started it?

Nononononononono. NO.

Yes, you WERE trolling! YES YOU WERE!

Wow. Brogan's on your side. Wow.

*Throws out any respect left for Brogan.* Disappointing.

Not really.. I read it. In fact I didn't troll in this thread and quote every post you made even if it wasn't direct at you and towards someone else.

But that's fine. I'm officially ignoring your posts now

Good bye

Will you two please STOP?!? You are going to get this thread closed. geeezes............

 

[Carlos]

Peggy, I did not intend to start a fight. I did not intend to create an arguement.

The same is true for the other thread.

Just. Wow. I'm speechless at Brogan. He makes FreshFoot look good by straight up saying "he has not started any argument."

 

[FreshFroot]

?

That's twice you've said "No offense" yet you deliberately set out to offend. And you have. Funny that you should talk of others being bullies.....
If you find me disgusting, then stop posting with me.

Offend how? Because I am countering your point of view and you have no valid claim back?

How is it funny? You are the one stating it's OKAY to go into another country and do what ever you want.

I didn't say your disgusting. I think your point of view is..or at least on this subject. Funny how one subject can push people aside.

And how am I posting with you? I can post here as much as you or anyone else can. There is no rule stating I or you or anyone else can't post to any topic?

The fact is we all have a choice. We can reply to someones topic/post or we can ignore it.

You have both choices as much as I have both. Except I want to voice my opinion as much as you do too.

So please don't point the finger at me, I am doing exactly as what you are doing and that is posting my point of view.

Let me tell you something, the US was not the only country involved in Iraq, and neither was the UK. There were many countries involved. You might want to read up on it.

Prove it... I'd like to see this proof please. As far as I have read up too.. no country besides UK and USA agreed to invade.

Have you seen me say anywhere here that the US, or any other country involved, was in the right? No you have not. Have I said that it is ok for us to send our troops anywhere? No, I did not. Have I said that our government should have done what they did, and are doing? NO, I have not. I have not said, nor would I ever say anything of the kind, because I do disagree with most of what has happened in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And trust me when I say that if I could bring our people home, you can bet your ass I would. All of these countries that we've helped for the past god-only-knows how many years need to stand on their own feet and do for themselves. We need to stop helping them with our troops, with our money, etc.

I totally agree with you here. And you are absolutely right.

But I will stand by my statement still - I have no sympathy for, nor patience with, someone who would deliberately put our troops, your troops, any country's troops, in grave danger.

I agree with you there. BUT the fact of the matter is you stated you have no sympathy for human life. Because if you did, then you would agree what your troops are doing out there found by these hidden documents is UN HUMAN.

 

[Anthony Parsons]

If people talk about the US in relation to the war in Afghanistan, you really need to be quite clear IMHO that you are referring to the political US, not the US in total... because the majority of US citizens are against what the US Government does and their actions. Change though seems to be quite difficult in that country for the political level... but that is not the citizens themselves.

 

[Carlos]

FreshFoot, you do realize she's a moderator. Right?

 

[Paul B]

Last chance guys.

Carlos, an opinion is one thing but calling someone retarded or a moron is an insult.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Just. Wow. I'm speechless at Brogan. He makes FreshFoot look good by straight up saying "he has not started any argument."

If you're going to refer to my comments, at least make it accurate.
I said FreshFroot did not start with the insults.

 

[FreshFroot]

FreshFoot, you do realize she's a moderator. Right?

I'm ignoring you.

As for her being a mod. I know.. she is also a friend. Though we diagree on a subject. It doesn't mean anything.

Actually it shows me there is a good side to her, which I didn't see till my last post.

As for her being a mod. What does that have to do with my comment? I never insulted her or cursed her. I just am asking for proof or countering her post. Nothing wrong with that.

Thats the point of discussions.

If we all agreed this topic would be dead.

 

[Peggy]

Offend how? Because I am countering your point of view and you have no valid claim back?

How is it funny? You are the one stating it's OKAY to go into another country and do what ever you want.

Sorry but I didn't say that. Read my post again.

Prove it... I'd like to see this proof please. As far as I have read up too.. no country besides UK and USA agreed to invade.

PROVE it?? Seriously??? Well that's easy enough....
All I have to do to prove it is to list the other countries who went in with us. Let's see - Australia, Austria, Poland, Israel.... shall I go on?

I agree with you there. BUT the fact of the matter is you stated you have no sympathy for human life.

And again, that is NOT what I said. Read my posts again, and get it right this time.

Because if you did, then you would agree what your troops are doing out there found by these hidden documents is UN HUMAN.

I do believe that I did say that I in no way agree with, nor support, what my country did regarding Irag and many other moves they've made. Again, get it right.

Darlin you need to read my posts again. Really, it looks like you're seeing only what you want to see in what I'm posting, and that is beyond irritating.

 

[FreshFroot]

If people talk about the US in relation to the war in Afghanistan, you really need to be quite clear IMHO that you are referring to the political US, not the US in total... because the majority of US citizens are against what the US Government does and their actions. Change though seems to be quite difficult in that country for the political level... but that is not the citizens themselves.

Ya that is true.

But one thing I noticed about travelling. People assume what the US government does REPRESENTS what the US public wants.

I mean it's human nature. If someone colored does something, we say all colored people are like that...

If someone from a certain country does something, we oh all such and such are like that.

This is from what I get going around the world for vacation. People see as the US or any other country doing something as what the public there wants. Otherwise the public should have the power to elect someone else.

Which happened much later in the US compared to the UK.

 

[Jason]

9/11 was a terrible thing Peggy, I think most around the world can agree... innocent lives lost.

So what is the excuse then for America killing so many innocent people in their secret missions within Iraq, Afghanistan, Middle East in general, prior to 9/11?

If you read the documents alone from the War on terror, the US have killed more civilians than actual enemy... 9/11 is minor in comparison to the innocent number the US have killed and are killing in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

As DSF said... you need to seriously look for the truth, which is not within the US media. I'm not trying to argue, or discredit the US in general, as US civilians don't make these choices... its Government that makes them. US military soldiers just do as they're told... the orders come from the political / military command level.

Not all mainstream media is bad (both U.S. and non-U.S.), but you also shouldn't take everything at face value. Do your own research, check out multiple sources and draw your own conclusions.

As someone who has served in the U.S. military, the rest of your post comes off somewhat offensive. It's not like there are just a bunch of mindless Soldiers / Marines / Sailors / Airman over there gunning down civilians (though, yes, there have been a lot of civilian casualties). Also, last I checked the U.S. wasn't the only country who has sent troops to Iraq/Afghanistan (many of which have been engaged themselves).

As for body count, I'm not sure where you're getting your facts, but the civilian count includes those killed by allies and insurgents (i.e., not just U.S. troops), and most were 1-3 individuals in small, but frequent incidents (yes, that's still one too many, and it starts to add up). The logs revealed about 15,000 extra civilian deaths that weren't pubicly reported before (but, even then, those logs include deaths that are not directly related to the war -- i.e., no troops involved). In total, around 156,000 deaths (civilian and enemy). That's still a lot, regardless of how many are civilians or not.

Personally, I don't agree with either of these wars (never have) and think we should cut our loses and pull out. Most, if not all ,of these civilian loses are not intentional though. Civilian body counts usually tend to outweigh the enemy body counts in just about every war, since there are usually far more civilians (especially in urban warfare). In combat, there's not a lot of time to react and make decisions. Unfortunately, those reactions and decisions are not always right.

 

[Peggy]

FreshFoot, you do realize she's a moderator. Right?

That shouldn't matter. But the fact is, I'm not a mod any longer. I stepped down from staff over a week ago.

 

[Peggy]

As for her being a mod. I know.. she is also a friend.

I am?? Could have fooled me.......

 

[Carlos]

Last chance guys.

Ban me for 24 hours. Do it. DO IT! You want to call me out because you think I am the one who started this entire flamewar? NOW I am pissed. I was trying to be cool, and let his comments slide off, but on top of all that, you go and side with him!? THAT'S IT. I'm done.

Carlos, an opinion is one thing but calling someone retarded or a moron is an insult.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Yeah, I insulted him. I'm the one who started. [/end sarcasm]

If you're going to refer to my comments, at least make it accurate.
I said FreshFroot did not start with the insults.

See, well then, there you go again. Same thing I was trying to say before. I just wanted you to say it again.

I did not insult him until he indirectly attacked me in that thread, but I don't think you care, or notice. *shrug*

 

[Anthony Parsons]

As someone has served in the U.S. military, the rest of your post comes off somewhat offensive.

Not trying to offend... and I am ex Army myself... so I have it on experience as well on what does and doesn't go on.

 

[FreshFroot]

Sorry but I didn't say that. Read my post again.




PROVE it?? Seriously??? Well that's easy enough....
All I have to do to prove it is to list the other countries who went in with us. Let's see - Australia, Austria, Poland, Israel.... shall I go on?


And again, that is NOT what I said. Read my posts again, and get it right this time.

I do believe that I did say that I in no way agree with, nor support, what my country did regarding Irag and many other moves they've made. Again, get it right.

Darlin you need to read my posts again. Really, it looks like you're seeing only what you want to see in what I'm posting, and that is beyond irritating.

Okay.

Can you find a story or links to where it stated, which countries helped invade? All I have ever found was UK and USA.

I don't see any other country, who agreed to take part after the UN meeting. Maybe I missed something.

If you don't agree with what your country did, then why are you mad JUST at that fact that wikileaks released different types of material. Meaning they also relased documents, showing US troops having FUN killing people. Or showing documents from soldiers, who reported how certain tortures went on or even video presented by wikileaks on what happened.

That was PART of wikileaks helping people see the truth. I bet you really don't know what your troops are doing there. And wikileaks has shown that. Sure they also released other information, which probably shouldn't have been released. But you have to admit the info on killing etc.. was always hidden from the public about what REALLY goes on.

We are always told a false story on what is happening.

 

[FreshFroot]

Not trying to offend... and I am ex Army myself... so I have it on experience as well on what does and doesn't go on.

So then the videos leaked by wikileaks of torture and killing is something you knew or kinda of expected was going on there?

Just asking, because I wouldn't know at all. Till I saw all these documents and just thought wow... can't believe how much is hidden from the public. And yet no one in the public can even do much without getting their own self in trouble. As we can see with the wikileaks stuff going on.

 

[Anthony Parsons]

No defence personnel are going to say what goes on... as we all sign secrecy contracts on entering the military which don't stop on leaving the military. What I will say, and is no secret, what happens on operations is not what is shown to the public via the media... well, very little anyway. People don't want to see the truth on TV... ask any soldier who has been in such operations! What really happens and what is portrayed... usually very different things. You would be naive to think otherwise.

 

[Jason]

Not trying to offend... and I am ex Army myself... so I have it on experience as well on what does and doesn't go on.

I figured it wasn't intentional.

 

[Carlos]

No defence personnel are going to say what goes on... as we all sign secrecy contracts on entering the military which don't stop on leaving the military. What I will say, and is no secret, what happens on operations is not what is shown to the public via the media... well, very little anyway. People don't want to see the truth on TV... ask any soldier who has been in such operations! What really happens and what is portrayed... usually very different things. You would be naive to think otherwise.

Excellent, well thought out post. Perfecto.