Hugo Chavez dies aged 58. Dictator or savior ?

Cal, you say "restored".
Are you claiming that when 56% of the people were in poverty and the oil companies and tiny percentage owned and ran things...that was "democracy"?

Explain.

In terms of the relationship with the USA, they are one of our top suppliers of Oil. We get 6% of our oil from them...that's a lot. I would call that the start of a relationship.

I am saddened that we start these ridiculous fights against folks like Castro and Chavez while cozying up to and financing Egypt (dictators), Pakistan, the Saudis, etc.....

These seems no rhyme or reason other than to give folks an "enemy" - in this case, for idealogical reasons. That is, he is a declared Socialist.

Then again, most of our best friends in Europe are social democracies (not to compare them to Chavez), but it's hard to say that Chavez is worse than Putin, the Sauds, etc.....

Global politics still seems to follow the Great Game of resource extraction...as opposed to ideals.
 
Biker said:
There's idealism and then there's realism. I wonder which of the two is rooted in fantasy land?
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Neither - which is why I explained he is neither dictator nor savior.....

Realism is my preferred mode - people in poverty are real. Not having $2 per gallon gas is less so.

As I said, it all depends on your values. I think that the people of a country should share in the wealth of the natural resources they own (example: offshore oil, etc.).

That may be socialist, but if it is I'm in the club.
 
eh...

Is it alright to not really care? He was more or less empty rhetoric and no populism, and he didn't really act like a spoiled child like, say, North Korea.
 
Cal said:
I would like to see democracy restored in Venezuela and a good relationship with the US and the rest of the world.
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Cal said:
They already had democracy and oil has nothing to with it. Oil is a weak debate argument that died out in 2007 or before. You might want to set your next meme search for memes created in the past 5 years to stay relevant o_O
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Ah, so you consider this the type of "democracy" which you want to live under? I thought democracy was the will of the majority of the people - you know, those who elected Chavez? Do you have a different definition you can point me to? Here is the "democracy" they had before him - what you want to go back to??? Over 50% in poverty and...this? I don't know what you are referring to in terms of memes, but read about the place in the 20 years prior to Chavez and tell me again that you think that was a better "democracy" - your opinion is as valid as mine!

"As the government started to devalue the currency in February 1983 in order to face its financial obligations, Venezuelans' real standard of living fell dramatically. A number of failed economic policies and increasing corruption in government led to rising poverty and crime, worsening social indicators, and increased political instability.
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Economic crisis in the 1980s and 1990s led to a political crisis which saw hundreds dead in the Caracazo riots of 1989, two attempted coups in 1992,[31] and the impeachment of President Carlos Andrés Pérez (re-elected in 1988) for corruption in 1993.​
Coup leader Hugo Chávez was pardoned in March 1994 by president Rafael Caldera, with a clean slate and his political rights intact.

A collapse in confidence in the existing parties saw Chávez elected President in 1998"
 
Lucas said:
He's no hero to me.
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Me neither - however, stats tell a story:
"The study, by Mexican polling firm Consulta Mitofsky, gives President Chavez a “high” approval rating of 64%"

He was the 4th most popular (approval rating) President in all of the Americas. As a comparison, GW Bush, our last "dictator" here, left office with a 26-30% approval rating.

That still leaves 36%, including you, who don't approve! But it doesn't change the facts.
 
if Chavez was such a bad person and "dictator"...... why are millions of people mourning for a politician ?

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Those are all the "wrong" people, you see!
They are poor.

Now, if you saw a bunch of bankers and oil men in suits mourning.....that would be another thing!
 
Chavez was a dictator by most definitions of the word, however, like most things in life, it is complicated.

He won over a lot of the population by improving services and building infrastructure - for the most part, he did improve the living standards of most of the population, especially the poor. This is more than what a lot of more developed nations have been able to do in recent history!

However, he also nationalised a lot of resources and companies (by "nationalised" I mean "stole"), however one can also argue that the multi-nationals who previously owned a lot of those resources were often corrupt and not looking after the best interests of the country, so it is complicated. The whole nationalisation versus private investment debate is not always as simple as it might sound to capitalist ideologists.

He also had a history of silencing his critics - disappearences, torture, murder and just simply outright arresting dissidents and others who challenge his leadership. There have been a lot of concerns about human rights violations in the country over the years.

However, even the UN has praised his work in improving conditions for the country's poor people, and also for his work in facilitating peace talks between the Colombian government and the FARC rebels. He was also a strong voice for solidarity amongst his South American neighbours, encouraging cooperation and close ties and resisting the influence of other countries on the sovereignty of Latin American countries.

At the same time, a lot of Venezuela's influence of it's neighbours was "bought" with supplies of cheap oil (often traded for other commodities and food at a much lower cost than the oil they supplied), which caused conflict within his country with suggestions that the money they could be earning from the oil would be better put to use on domestic projects. Indeed, there are suggestions that if Venezuela is not able to maintain these generous contributions to other countries, support for them in the region may diminish somewhat.

From my point of view - Chavez "won" his popularity from his own people by doing a lot to improve the living conditions of the population, which is generally a good thing, but the lack of transparency in his government, the manipulation of media and suppression of opposition to his leadership, are all things which are very troublesome and should be monitored carefully by human rights groups.

The worst thing that can happen in the wake of a sudden loss of a strong leader, is a power vacuum, where many previously small players step up and try and exert their authority and take control. This is where internal conflict often starts and corruption and lawlessness can take hold. That can be bad not only for Venezuela, but also for the entire region.

I hope that the government can continue to function effectively and provide for their people and continue to foster relationships with other countries in the region. I have personal ties to Colombia - so I am concerned about the relationship between these two countries in particular - especially where there has been tension and conflict in the past.
 

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