XF 2.1 Help explain the Warning Points system.

[RallyFan]

Hi all,

You'll have to forgive what seems like a really stupid question, but after spending a few hours on it, I'm struggling to get my head around the Warning Points system.

Unfortunately the documentation on this in the manual isn't too clear (or I'm too dense to work it out).

Is the idea behind the system that points are accumulated, and therefore bans increase (rather than straight up 1/2day/1week bans)? If this is the case, is best practice to NOT have points expire at the same or less time than the ban?

EXAMPLE: Lets say 10 points under Warning Actions = 1 day ban, and 50 points under Warning Actions = 1 month.

If I give someone 10 warning points with a 1 day expiry, does that mean when the person returns from their ban, those points will expire?
If I give someone 50 warning points with a 1 month expiry, does that mean when the person returns from their ban, those 20 points expire?



If I am correct in my line of thinking to this point, would a sound strategy be something like this: 10 points per ban offence (abuse/trolling/spamming).

Warning Points / Warning Action Trigger	Ban Period	Expire Points in	No of (effective) bans
10​	1 day	1 week	1
20​	2 days	1 week	2
30​	1 week	1 month	3
40​	2 weeks	1 month	4
50​	1 month	2 months	5
60​	2 months	4 months	6
70​	3 months	6 months	7
80​	6 months	12 months	8
90​	12 months	24 months	9
100​	PERMABAN	PERMABAN	10

With this logic, if a user copped their first ban (10pts), they would have to behave for a week without a second ban.
If they get banned a second time in that week (20pts), or a more serious infringement, they would be out for 2 days, and have to behave a week.
Any 3rd ban within that period (30 pts), would result in a weeks ban.

and so on and so on.

This would allow rules like:

• Trolling/Flaming = 10 points.
• Bait Posting/Spamming = 20 points.
• User Abuse = 30 points.
• Staff Abuse = 50 points.

So... is my understanding of the warning system correct, and is this a smart way to setup warnings and bans, or are there better/easier ways.

Thanks for anyones help on this one.

 

[Alan_SP]

The shortest answer is, it depends how you want to set this up. You can set points to expire in certain time period (which is independent from ban time period). Or you can set them to last "forever", i.e. never expire.

So, set this up as you would like them. For one example, I set my points to last for a month. In this case, points accumulate for a month since first one (but, after a month, depending when second points are given, they still have "fresh" 30 days from that point in time).

I don't think it is that complicated to figure out.

 

[Mr Lucky]

I've always assumed it's each time you get a point/s (ie with the warning) warning then you get the action, whether it's the intial warning or subsequent one that causes an action threshold to be reached.

But it's very flexible as you can have a ban action for a certain period, OR for the time that the points are above the threshold. So it is a bit complex.

So in the table above (your ban periods are set as time not threshold) if someone gets 50 points they get a month ban.

On their return, they do something minor and may get one point (that expires in two months).

They don't get banned again for suddenly having 51 points.

A month later the 50 points expire and they just have one point for a further month. So now, within that month, they only need 49 points to get another one month ban. (Or is that only in the case of action based on threshold?)

I'm not sure what the last column means though, No of (effective) bans.

 

[RallyFan]

Thanks

"No of effective bans" would be the number of bans taken to reach that period. So for each rule breach it's 10 points. To be permanbanned a user would have to get 10 rule breaches prior to points expiring.

In testing I had all points set to expire after 12 months, with Actions for intervals of 5.

5 points = 1 day ban
10 points = 2 day ban
15 points = 1 week ban.

Problem was that a user could get 5 points, and that would trigger a 1 day ban, and 5 warning points on their account. A day later if they got another 5 points given, it jumped to a 2 day ban. Upon return another 5 point ban in a year would be a weeks ban.

That works fine in theory, but in reality sometimes I user might do minor bannable things, and you don't want it to accumulate (you just want several 1 day bans).

For example they might troll 3 times in 12 months. That only deserves 1 day bans, but it'd add up to a week.

If the expiry is relaxed on those bans (e.g 1 day ban = 1 day expiry, 2 day ban = 2 day expiry, 1 week ban = 1 week expiry), then the user never reaches a point whereby bans increase. In testing the points expired the same period as the bans did (1 day ban, 1 day expiry on points, and the user returns with points expired).

Hence my idea of staggering points and bans, so that users are required to be on best behaviour for a set period (which increases per infringement/ban). If they come straight back and offend, their ban is longer, else 1 day bans can be issued every week without accumulation.

I hope that all makes sense.

 

[Mr Lucky]

I can see something a bit weird.

If you give someone a warning of 50 points that expire after 4 weeks, but there is a warning action that is set for 50 points to give a one week ban. When they come back after a week, they still have 50points (for a further three weeks) , so do they get automatically get another one week ban three times?

 

[RallyFan]

I can see something a bit weird.

If you give someone a warning of 50 points that expire after 4 weeks, but there is a warning action that is set for 50 points to give a one week ban. When they come back after a week, they still have 50points (for a further three weeks) , so do they get automatically get another one week ban three times?

I'll try to explain better.

There are 3 components to a ban:

1. Warning Categories: Simply a holder to better organise warnings, with no real settings in it.
2. Warnings: Pre set (or Custom) Warnings where points can be allocated, and a points expiry given.
3. Warning Actions: There is no way to expire points, only trigger an action (ban) for a specific time period once points threshold has been reached.

I originally had it setup with:
1 Warning Category
Warnings set for 5 points (1 day), 10 points (2 days), 15 points (1 week), 20 points (2 weeks). Points expiry was set to one year.
Warning Actions: Set for 5 points = 1 day, 10 points = 2 days, 15 points = 1 week, 20 points = 2 weeks.

User gets warning points for 4 offences giving them 4 warning points that expire in a year.
User gets a 5th warning point, and gets auto banned for 1 day.
User returns after 1 day ban with 5 warning points expiring in 1 year.
User reoffends and Warning (10 points / 2 days) is given, but due to a previous 5 points, that create 15 warning points, and bans the user for a week.

As such with that configuration there is no way to easy scale things by giving 5 points for a rule violation, nor an easy way to ban a user 3 times for small rule breaches that should be 1 day bans.

-----------------------------

The alternative then was to setup:
1 Warning Category
Warnings set for 5 points (1 day), 10 points (2 days), 15 points (1 week), 20 points (2 weeks). Points expiry was set to the same as ban period.
Warning Actions: Set for 5 points = 1 day, 10 points = 2 days, 15 points = 1 week, 20 points = 2 weeks.

In testing that way, user warned and on 5th warning point was banned for 1 day, when they returned however the warning points expired. Thus a second 5 point ban resulted in another days ban, which points expired the next day.

As such with that configuration there was no way to have minor bans accumulate into something bigger, however there was better granular control.

---------------------------

Hence my idea in the table, however I thought I'd ask here, as it was doing my head in.

Hopefully that explains the issues I've experienced, and if there are ways around it, or I'm simply doing it wrong.

 

[RallyFan]

Just revisiting this one, is anyone able to do a "Warning Points for Dummies" (for someone mildly autistic)

Primarily regarding how Warning Points and Warning Points expiry work together.

Lets say 50 points = 1 months ban.

If someone is banned straight up for a month with points expiring in a month, what happens?
Do the points continue to expire whilst the user is banned for a month (i.e when the user returns from the ban they have 0 active warning points), or do they only expire once the user account is active again (i.e once the user returns from the ban, they still have 50 warning points on their account for a month)?

Just trying to get my head around the whole cumulative points system to determine the best way to set it up.

Thanks

 

[Sunka]

50 points = ban 1 month
50 points warning = expire after 3 months

After 1 an month user will still have 50 points and they will expire after 2 another months

 

[RallyFan]

50 points = ban 1 month
50 points warning = expire after 3 months

After 1 an month user will still have 50 points and they will expire after 2 another months

Thanks I'll have a look into that.

I got myself all confused and overcomplicated the entire thing trying to figure it out.

I think what threw me off a bit was "WARNING ACTIONS > For time period > While at or above points threshold", as based on that I was trying to figure out how users would both stay banned above a points threshold, and still have points expire to put them below that threshold and unban them.

So as a matter of practice: Points (given on a warning) shouldn't be used for a ban period, but rather be used towards a ban period triggered by Warning Actions?.

So the components are:
Warning (with Expiry) = Setup predefined warnings for rule breaking. Used to give users points and their expiry period.
Warning Action = Triggered when points hit a threshold and used to add a timed ban period once points exceed.
Warning Defaults = Expiry for points boosted, when a user hasn't hit a ban threshold (Warning Action), but continues to break rules and get points? I.E Done to prevent users breaking rules but not enough to trigger a Warning Action.

So using my table from above and using say 10 points per rule breach:

Warning Points	Ban Period	Expire Points in
10	1 day	1 week
20	2 days	1 week
30	1 week	1 month
40	2 weeks	1 month
50	1 month	2 months
60	2 months	4 months
70	3 months	6 months
80	6 months	12 months
90	12 months	24 months
100	PERMABAN	PERMABAN

User breaks a rule (10 Warning Points) = 1 day ban, with points remaining for a week.
User in that same week breaks another rule (20 Warning Points) = 2 day ban, with points expiring a week from that ban.
User in that same week breaks a third rule (30 Warning Points) = 1 week ban with points expiring in a month.
User returns and 2 months later breaks a rule = 1 day ban (as only 10 active points).

Therefore (if my thinking is correct), in order to reach a permaban the user would have to constantly break rules over an extended period of time (or break a major site rule with like 50 points awarded straight up).

Is that correct?

 

[Paul B]

Warning actions only apply when crossing a threshold.

Hence how it is possible to still have points but the ban to expire.

If the member accumulates more points then it would push them over the next threshold, which would typically be a longer or permanent ban.

 

[Sunka]

User breaks a rule (10 Warning Points) = 1 day ban, with points remaining for a week.
User in that same week breaks another rule (20 Warning Points) = 2 day ban, with points expiring a week from that ban.
User in that same week breaks a third rule (30 Warning Points) = 1 week ban with points expiring in a month.
User returns and 2 months later breaks a rule = 1 day ban (as only 10 active points).

Therefore (if my thinking is correct), in order to reach a permaban the user would have to constantly break rules over an extended period of time (or break a major site rule with like 50 points awarded straight up).

Correct perhaps. Which rule in your example user breaks?
Rule A = 10 points
Rule B = 20 points

User breaks rule A - (10 Warning Points) = 1 day ban, with points remaining for a week.

User in that same week breaks another rule A (10 Warning Points) = 20 points = 2 days ban, with second 10 points expiring a week from that ban. Because user has valid 10 points from past rule breaking

User in that same week breaks a rule B (20 Warning Points) = 10 +10 +20 = 40 = 2 week ban

Points expiration is one thing, baned time is another

 

[RallyFan]

Warning actions only apply when crossing a threshold.

Gotcha! So it's a case of you're either over it or under it, and once it's triggered it's not constantly in place.

Correct perhaps. Which rule in your example user breaks?
Rule A = 10 points
Rule B = 20 points

User breaks rule A - (10 Warning Points) = 1 day ban, with points remaining for a week.

User in that same week breaks another rule A (10 Warning Points) = 20 points = 2 days ban, with second 10 points expiring a week from that ban. Because user has valid 10 points from past rule breaking

User in that same week breaks a rule B (20 Warning Points) = 10 +10 +20 = 40 = 2 week ban

Points expiration is one thing, baned time is another

Thanks

That makes perfect sense now.

Just seen forums in the past where they don't really use warning points, just a straight up ban period.