Has anyone noticed a decline in forums?

[bottiger]

I didn't use the phrases "0 competition" or "tiny niche", nor did I say that League of Legends was a "dying game" (I don't even know what it is).

You don't have to though because that is what you are implying. You can always find anecdotal evidence of someone's super niche forum for Ford/Toyota XYZ model surviving or having a stable population. But that is not what is important.

What's important is that it seems to be easier to grow and attract users into reddit or facebook as opposed to an old-style forum for an equal amount of effort. In fact I've seen a few forums that had a lot of work spent on it being absolutely dominated by subreddits with a lot less effort.

This does not just affect a few hyper-competitive niches. When I came back to xenforo.com after several years, the first thing I noticed was how much fewer people there are now and how it took >24 hours to get a reply to most of my posts. It was a stark difference from the past.

You can also confirm here that xenforo has taken a nose dive as well in other metrics that can be found.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=xenforo

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=reddit,forum

Amazon Alexa

www.alexa.com

And I would tell you to look at all the broken links and forums with 2-3 users here.

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The issue here is forums as a whole, not the fact that you can hope to get lucky that your niche is so small that your users have nowhere else to go.

 

[Wesker]

It really depends on the industry. In general though yes the overall popularity is declining gradually but some industries it's just fine still.

 

[Forsaken]

I don't think the graphs you showed prove what you're trying to prove.

For one, you are comparing forum software as a whole versus one of the most popular communication platforms in the world. A platform of millions of users vs a million individual instances of various platforms... Like... It is not rocket science which would have more prevalence.

You're calling out someone for using anecdotal evidence for why some forums can remain successful... Mainly ones that have a targeted purpose and maintain content and community to the extent that they're competitive vs newer incumbent software.... But at the same time ignore the anecdotal evidence as to why other forums fail because they're more general and there is likely better content found elsewhere.

Comparing social media platforms to forums is not a fair comparison; a forum can never compete vs social media because you are literally using something that is ready built for an existing purpose, and then adding additional functionality on. It will never be as seamless or well implemented for your community as if you had built it to your specific needs with the specific purpose of everything working perfectly together.

Such silly arguments.

 

[bottiger]

For one, you are comparing forum software as a whole versus one of the most popular communication platforms in the world. A platform of millions of users vs a million individual instances of various platforms... Like... It is not rocket science which would have more prevalence.

This argument would have had some merit were it not for the fact that reddit did not have more search activity than forums before 2017.

And no, I don't think reddit deserves to be bigger than all the forums in the world.

Saying that it is the fault of lazy forum owners or to blame them for not having a niche with no competition is plain wrong.

 

[Joe Blow]

There seems to be a certain level of denial among some here. It is an indisputable fact that forums are declining in both popularity and relevance. We can argue all day about why that is happening, but not that it is happening. Anyone can pull out an example of a forum that hasn't declined, or is growing, but that doesn't mean that the decline isn't true in the vast majority of cases. Discussion on the internet isn't dying out, forums with their outdated UI are.

Forums need to be re-invented and revitalised. Hanging on to the past and denying that there is a problem will only ensure a more rapid decline into the dustbin of internet history. The back end of Xenforo is solid. The front end, however, needs work. I'm not even saying that we have to abandon the 1990s look. It may work well for some communities. But something needs to be done to address the issue of forums not appealing to the younger demographic. I believe they can, but change on a very large scale would be involved.

 

[Forsaken]

This argument would have had some merit were it not for the fact that reddit did not have more search activity than forums before 2017.

And no, I don't think reddit deserves to be bigger than all the forums in the world.

Saying that it is the fault of lazy forum owners or to blame them for not having a niche with no competition is plain wrong.

Google Trends is a metric of search terms used, and not an accurate representation of activity or popularity. Reddit not having the same search term trend it does now than it did pre 2017 does not change that it is currently one of the largest communication platforms, nor does it give a good representation of the activity or popularity of the forum previously. Reddit in 2012 had 46 Million MAU; your graph does not accurately portray that.

Whether you agree with being Reddit larger than any individual forum, or all forums put together doesn't really matter... The reality won't change because you disagree with it.

I have not called forum owners lazy, nor have I said they need to target a niche that has no competition. The only things I have said is that they should focus on community and their content, which is the same advice given to every forum owner since the first consumer forum software released.

 

[Paul B]

Forums need to be re-invented and revitalised.

What are your ideas for reinventing and revitalising forums?

 

[Joe Blow]

What are your ideas for reinventing and revitalising forums?

As I've already mentioned, I feel it's entirely a front end UI issue. A good idea in my view would be creating two default styles, one that looks like forums look now, and one that is mobile focused, simpler, more intuitive, easier to navigate quickly and post and interact with content. People could then use the style that is more suited to the type of community they are creating. Those who want an old school look an go that way, and those who want a simpler, more intuitive, mobile focused look can go down that road.

The reason I think it should be an official and not third party style, is because it would need to be 100% supported by the developers to ensure that it always worked the way it was supposed to. Third party styles are at the mercy of those third parties, and can have a lot of issues as a result.

Generally, I like the approach @Mike Creuzer outlined here: https://medium.com/adjourn/how-we-can-improve-the-forum-user-experience-41e4e036a27f

 

[Paul B]

That would be very easily achievable with template edits and custom CSS.

Do you have any specific examples/ideas?

 

[Paul B]

I also find the comparisons to Reddit hugely ironic.

It's a dreadful interface and layout, with barriers in place to unregistered visitors, extremely difficult to search for content, and the vast majority of content and replies are fluff and nonsense.

Still, it seems that's what this generation wants.

Reddit, tiktok, Instagram - all just brain bubblegum.

 

[Joe Blow]

That would be very easily achievable with template edits and custom CSS.

Do you have any specific examples/ideas?

Well I can't create any mockups but I like the news feed approach with infinite scroll, simplified navigation, a single large Create button for creating any kind of content, Ajax live search results, basically entirely mobile focused down to a granular level. Completely designed for mobile, not for desktop, although it will obviously need a Desktop version.

Xenforo is currently designed for Desktop and converted to mobile. The new alternative UI would be created for mobile and then converted to Desktop.

 

[sbj]

Reddit, Twitter, Facebook and co have one thing common: they are centralized. A user needs to register once on their platform and has access to millions of other users.

Forums are de-centralized. We have 0 connection between our forums. A user must register on every single one and there is no connection between the forums unlike on reddit.

Take the reddit frontpage. You see from every kind of subreddit the latest shiniest content. A user is not fixed on a single niche topic. He gets to see content across all niches. THAT is what makes it interesting, not the interface or layout. When I scroll the frontpage, I see funny stuff, interesting stuff, sad stuff, stuff I have never thing would exist, etc.

So, do you want innovation in the forum world?

I proposed a time ago this "hub" idea.

What if our forums shared together a "hub", like reddit. Think it like a link directory but reddit style. So the "hub" displays the latest topics and content across all our forums. On the "hub mainpage" we can upvote and downvote and see different forums. The user needs to register once and has access to all forums participating in this hub. There would be threads about cars from car forums, maybe gaming related topics from gaming forums, gardening stuff from gardening forums, cats, dogs, bitcoin, barbies, painting, you name it. Just like reddit.

This would open up so much potential for all forums, big and small.

 

[Paul B]

What if our forums shared together a "hub", like reddit. Think it like a link directory but reddit style. So the "hub" displays the latest topics and content across all our forums. On the "hub mainpage" we can upvote and downvote and see different forums. The user needs to register once and has access to all forums participating in this hub. There would be threads about cars from car forums, maybe gaming related topics from gaming forums, gardening stuff from gardening forums, cats, dogs, bitcoin, barbies, painting, you name it. Just like reddit.

It's impossible.

It would require a single database, which is what all social media platforms have.

 

[sbj]

It's impossible.

It would require a single database, which is what all social media platforms have.

I mean, I am not sure but I think it is possible?

Because the "hub" itself has of course its database. But it pulls the records from our sites through the XF API.

So, just like now, all of us have to host our forums somewhere. That doesn't change. So we all have our own database nobody has access to.

But the hub gets limited access by API calls to our servers and pulls the records. Then it re-organizes the content and displays it on the hub. And if people on the hub click on those threads, they are directed to our sites on our hosts. So it is like a redirecting service and centralizes the content in one place. But the burden is still on the server our sites are on. I believe this should be hypothetically possible, no?

 

[CoZmicShReddeR]

Kidding? I still remember all the members I lost to Facebook and World of Warcraft!

 

[Paul B]

I mean, I am not sure but I think it is possible?

Sounds like an opportunity for someone willing to put the time, money, and effort into it.

 

[Chromaniac]

ActivityPub was created for such an idea. I am not sure if there is any forum software that is designed to be compatible with it. But having independent communities that interact with each other and have a single login mechanism exists already. Mastodon is a popular implementation of this concept.

GitHub - w3c/activitypub

Contribute to w3c/activitypub development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

 

[sbj]

Sounds like an opportunity for someone willing to put the time, money, and effort into it.

Yeah, well, it is a huge task of course but this is how I would innovate the forum world, if I could. I mean, basically I am mimicing what social media does best. They are centralized, so they attract huge amount of people in one place. We, as forum owners, are on ourselves and on the mercy of the Google algorithms. What if we could all combine our forums in this "hub" and build our own giant place? There are so many forums and I never get to know them because I never meet them. But this hub would introduce us to all kind of forums with all kind of contents. It is a win-win for everyone. Also the hypothetical phone app could be also more easily done as it would be centered around this hub. So less work to do.

ActivityPub was created for such an idea. I am not sure if there is any forum software that is designed to be compatible with it. But having independent communities that interact with each other and have a single login mechanism exists already. Mastodon is a popular implementation of this concept.

GitHub - w3c/activitypub

Contribute to w3c/activitypub development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Well, I hear this for the first time. I guess someone already had this idea. Mastodon I heard before but never seen or used.

Well, the question was how we would innovate and re-design. This is how I would do it. Instead of small islands spread out around the whole world, we should combine our forces into a big island. Just login to the XF-hub, surf and discover new forums and content. Use language filters to only see forums in that language or filter out +18 stuff or filter out certain niches like "sports only" etc.

Having ideas is the easy part. Implementing the ideas is the hard part. If I were a millionaire, I'd buy XF and make this happen .

 

[Paul B]

If I were a millionaire, I'd buy XF and make this happen

You don't need to own XF to make it happen.

Any integration/development of this sort would be independent of XF.

 

[djbaxter]

You don't have to though because that is what you are implying. You can always find anecdotal evidence of someone's super niche forum for Ford/Toyota XYZ model surviving or having a stable population. But that is not what is important.

...

The issue here is forums as a whole, not the fact that you can hope to get lucky that your niche is so small that your users have nowhere else to go.

I see. So you read minds as well, do you?

Don't tell me what I said when I didn't say it and then switch to what I implied when I didn't imply it and then switch back to a "tiny niche with no competition" again when the only person saying that is you.

Apart from the fact that it is annoying and ultimately a lie, it is insulting. I know what I said and what I implied and what you are constructing is only in your own head, not in any version of reality that anyone else would recognize.

You are being ridiculous.