Distinguish "Permanent" and "Temporary" bans in admincp

Gsk8

Active member
Currently, there is no way for an admin or mod to distinguish the difference from a "Permanent" and "Temporary" ban in the Admincp. When a user is banned based on points/threshold, the system automatically sets up an internal expiration date based on the threshold, but that date is not shown. See the photo in the post below.

Please see this post:
 
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Upvote 12

beerForo

Well-known member
I was trying to come up with some wording for the End Date column but it was all too wordy. I think I came up with a solution.

Permanent
Permanent*

Permanent with an asterisk, and a legend to explain that they have reached the threshold so it is only permanent if they never fall below it etc. etc.

*Reached points threshold
 
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Gsk8

Active member
Could the "End Date" Column just show date the ban will be lifted based on the last point(s) given? The idea is to see the date :) VB did this with their built-in Infraction system.
 

djbaxter

Well-known member
I was trying to come up with some wording for the End Date column but it was all too wordy. I think I came up with a solution.

Permanent
Permanent*

Permanent with an asterisk, and a legend to explain that they have reached the threshold so it is only permanent if they never fall below it etc. etc.

*Reached points threshold
That wouldn't work though to separate those who actually were permanently banned fro those who were actually just temporarily banned by a warning action.
 

beerForo

Well-known member
Temp bans show a date. Only bans that met the threshold do not because the system does not know if they are perm/temp based on different variables, which is what this suggestion is about.
 

djbaxter

Well-known member
Temp bans show a date. Only bans that met the threshold do not because the system does not know if they are perm/temp based on different variables, which is what this suggestion is about.
sigh

Yes. That is the whole point of this suggestion/thread. And my point: that they display expiring bans triggered by a warning action as permanent when they are not actually permanent and they do have an identifiable expiry date.

So your suggestions about changing the phrase are not relevant.
 

beerForo

Well-known member
I agree. My solution was the simple one with the asterisk letting you know it was triggered as you say. The better solution is showing the date, as you say. ;)
 

Harpers Tate

Well-known member
At its simplest level I'd merely describe the word "Permanent" as displayed in this context as inaccurate, since it may not be. It only means that the BAN itself has no end date. But that may arise from two causes, and this term only accurately describes one of them
  • a ban applied by a Mod (etc) with no end date
  • a ban applied by a Warning action; the ban itself has no end date, but the Warning action potentially does have an effect.

Without any clever coding to separate these two cases, the easiest thing to do (I guess) to make this more informative would be to replace the text "Permanent" with a term like "Until lifted".
 

beerForo

Well-known member
the easiest thing to do (I guess) to make this more informative would be to replace the text "Permanent" with a term like "Until lifted"
This sounds like the ban must be lifted (not the points reduced) which can also apply to regular permanent. You can lift a ban at any time. This is more confusing imo.
 

Harpers Tate

Well-known member
That phrase is intentionally imprecise.
"Permanent" has an exact meaning; it will never end - so in fact it's always potentially inaccurate since even a Mod-applied "permanent" ban can be lifted.
"Until lifted" (or pick another equivalent phrase) should suggest that the ban will remain there until it's lifted - by whatever means are appropriate/relevant i.e whether automatic (Warning action) or manual.

If we revert to the original thread that prompted this suggestion, the OP there suggested that Warning Action bans were "permanent" when they are not. Which is my point; in fact that is just a misunderstanding of what "it" means when it says permanent and that comes from the misuse of this exact word in this context.

In making this suggestion I am looking to avoid extra coding i.e. to separate Action applied bans from regular bans in order to display them differently. Amending output text without changing the underlying process logic is (or ought to be) trivial. And removing "permanent" in favour of another less precise term will obviate the very misunderstanding that arose here.
 
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Mr Lucky

Well-known member
There is not an actual expiry date since it does not know when the warning points will expire or otherwise be removed, so it treats it as permanent. If you want it to have an expiry date,

This is making no sense to me, because "it" must know when the warning will expire or be removed, becase the (permanently yet somehow temporarily banned user gets a notice telling them when the ban will be liftedScreenshot 2021-01-24 at 13.03.00.png
 
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djbaxter

Well-known member
How about indefinitely banned?
Changing the wording wouldn't really help. The fact is it's pretty easy to see when a warning action triggers a ban and, by scanning the dates of those warnings, when the accumulated warning points will fall below the threshold and lift the ban. I don't think it is that difficult to do this programmatically.
 

Gsk8

Active member
The point for me was to be able to distinguish the difference from a "Permanent" and "Temporary" ban in the Admincp (See OP). It would be nice to see the date that a ban will be lifted, even if it still read "Permanent."
 

Mr Lucky

Well-known member
The way I see this is there are thyree types of warning induced bans, but only two words.

So points get to the ban threshold and can trigger

  • While at this number of points*
  • Permanent ban
  • Temp (for x weeks)

*The first one seems a bit odd because if someone is banned, they cannot accrue more points - however the reason for it is that time period can also apply to non-ban actions such as discourage or usergroup application

So I would like to see 3 names for 3 types of ban.

1 x permanent ban (= forever or until a presidential pardon)
2 types of temp ban:
  • Temporary (points related
  • Temporary (time related)

In a way the points related is "sort of" time related, because it relies on the time related expiration of the points.

But either way, it does have a finite defined end of ban date hence it is temporary.

Other wise there is a paradox of a permanent ban that is temporary, ie if the points expire in 3 weeks, it is a permanent 3 week ban ?????
 
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djbaxter

Well-known member
The way I see this is there are thyree types of warning induced bans, but only two words.

So points get to the ban threshold and can trigger

  • While at this number of points*
  • Permanent ban
  • Temp (for x weeks)

*The first one seems a bit odd because if someone is banned, they cannot accrue more points - however the reason for it is that time period can also apply to non-ban actions such as discourage or usergroup application
Nit quite true, actually. If the member has made several posts in a short period of time, the moderators may discover additional posts and issue warnings for those yoo, so the points would continue to accumulate, extending the ban.
 
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